Game changer Emulsifying Vegetable Glycerin and BHO for E-Juice

Whoop, whoop, lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu!!!!!!!!!1  Hee, hee, hee, snicker, snark, snort, don’t you just love it when a plan comes together?

Those of ya’ll who’ve tried to blend BHO and Vegetable Glycerin to make e-juice, know it doesn’t readily happen and you are limited in the potency levels that you can reach extracting with glycerin as the menstruum.

You are limited even adding a surfactant like lethicin, to promote absorption, so that market hasn’t taken off as readily as it might if it delivered a more potent hit.

At the suggestion of CAT Scientific, whom has supplied Skunk Pharm Research with equipment for testing, we tried their X-120 Homogenizer with a T-17 (N) generator shaft assembly, to see if they would not only blend, but stay blended.

For that experiment, we heated 250 ml of VG to 66C/150F in a 500 ml beaker, and added 6 grams of green BHO, which I’ve saved for several years as an example of too many washes using an open tube.  Before investing any amounts of prime oil, best to see what it does with bad example show and tell samples.

250 ml is about the minimum that can be processed with the T-17 (N)  generator in that sized beaker, as it is high precision and relies on the liquid as its lubricant.  CAT S, not only published that caveat in their supplied “destruction manual”, but passed it on to us in an e-mail to make sure we read the manual before firing up the homogenizer.

They also provide the caveat that homogenizers don’t like vortexes, for the same reason, so it can’t be used in the center of the container, only around the center.  That seemed fair enough, so we followed those simple instructions in the test.

Wowza!  It made about one minutes work of fully emulsifying the BHO and VG, producing an light green opaque solution, which hasn’t observably changed in 60 hours of standing, so we will be moving on to seeing just how much BHO we can mix with 250 ml of VG.

We will run it up to 50% BHO, in the next trial, but will start with a fresh sample so that we can field test it on patients afterwards.  At CAT’s suggestion, we will use a T-17 (V) generator shaft assembly, because the viscosity will be much higher.

I’ve also started dialog with an associate who is an e-juice manufacturer, whom has a market for the end product, so can test on a much larger scale.  We donate our meds, but over half a liter of e-juice would far exceed current demand, while demand for the same BHO in cancer meds continues to be strong.

You heard it here folks, this device is a game changer in the e-juice market!!!

While on the spendy side for ma and pa, they could produce more e-juice in about a minute, than they would likely need in a year anyway.  It is however, easily in the price range for small groups, and chump change for someone producing e-juice for the market place.  In fact, for those in the market, CAT makes much larger machines than the hand held unit that we are testing.

Contact information for this sweetheart is http://www.catscientific.com/ and bon appetite!

Here is a picture of the X-120, as well as the T-17 (N) generator, as well as the 250 ml emulsion that we created three days ago:

X-120 Homogenizer-1-1CAT MCS-66 stirring hotplate-1-1Homogenizer in action-1-1

GW

UPDATE 4/16/14

By Joe

We had the opportunity to make a much larger batch of BHO/Glycerin e-juice. We started by winterizing around 270g of raw extract in a dry ice bath for one hour and subsequently filtering to 20 um. We then decarboxylated the extract at 250F until all the small CO2 bubbles were gone. The extract cooled to 150F before continuing. The final volume of extract was just under 250ml and we brought the total volume to 500ml with vegetable glycerin while stirring. It took only a few minutes to completely mix the solution and it stayed mixed for a few weeks. *With this large of a volume you must keep the stir bar on and keep turning the vessel while the homogenizer is running. *Place the head of the homogenizer below the surface but not completely below the interface of the two solutions.

After two weeks the solution started getting a little oily on the surface; which was quickly fixed by the addition of a little glycerin and re-homogenizing. The postulated reasoning for the separation is thus; we calculated the ratio with raw extract and allowed for a 20% loss due to winterizing and decarbing. The final volume of oil was estimated from a beaker, not a graduated cylinder, so the margin of error is greater than +/- 5% especially since the oil was between two graduations. The volume to volume ratio was close to 50/50 and was easily dropped into a wickless e-cig liquid tank.

The reviews coming back from patients are positive and some newer patients have even asked for a more dilute version! The flavor is pleasant as well!

4-20-14

 Answers to two most ask questions

The question, “How ya’ll do that”, keeps arising, so here are some more process details on Joe and my previous experiment blending 24 grams of BHO Absolute into 39 grams of VG.

We started with an ounce of borrowed, raw oleoresin BHO extract, which I redissolved into about 10X warm 190 proof ethanol, and stored in a 0F freezer for 48 hours, before filtering out the plant waxes and cooking off the alcohol in a 250F oil bath, and then decarboxylating the Absolute to about 70%.

Yield was 24 grams of carboxylic acid Absolute, which we decanted it into a 140 ml graduated beaker.

While the Absolute was decarboxylating, we heated up a 100 ml beaker of Kosher Vegetable Glycerin to 65C, using a CAT Scientific stirring hot plate, and set up the CAT Scientific 120 X variable speed drive motor, with T17 Homogenizer and “N” impeller on its stand.

After decanting the 24 grams of Absolute into the 140 ml beaker, we added 24 grams of 150F Vegetable glycerin and set the beaker on the homogenizer stand base and lowered the homogenizer shaft until there was just enough space left between the bottom of the beaker and the rotor, that when the beaker was held firmly against the base, as it was rotated and oscillated in small circles, there was no contact between the two.

That allowed us to process the minimum amount of material, and still keep the rotor fully submerged, in the 140 ml beaker, which was about three rotor diameters wide. Pressing the beaker against the stand base and adjusting rotor speed to about two thirds throttle, Joe moved the beaker in an oscillating motion, working around the bottom, where there was an inhomogeneous mixture.

Once we had reach the process limits, we started slowly adding VG and continuing to oscillate and rotate the beaker, until the oil and VG were fully homogenized. At that point, we had added a total of 39 grams of VG to 24 grams of BHO Absolute.

As we added glycerin, we raised the homogenizer some, so as to keep the rotor just under the surface of the area that we were working. We kept the rotor submerged to keep it lubricated and away from the center of the beaker to avoid generating a vortex.

The second question is, “How long was it stable”, and I note that the first post was 12-6-2013, and the first emulsion has started developing a fine dark hairline around the top of the test tube, so 90 days or so.

The second emulsion was returned to the person loaning us the oil and sat around unchanged for about a week while he shared it with volunteers using an Essential VAAAPP pen. It produced impressive volumes of vapor, produced good medicinal effects, and was rated as couch locking in excess.

It also separated in the VAAAPP pen bottle after heating, but in that application still delivered a potent hit.

After a week, there was no separation ring in the original container, but he stuck it in the freezer to preserve it, which caused the VG and Absolute to separate.

The short answer to the stability question, is that it does eventually separate all on its own at ambient temperatures and you can speed it up with heat or cold. In the middle lies opportunity, which as you note, Joe has already started exploiting with clients on larger scales!

 

 

 

166 responses to this post.

  1. […] Game changer Emulsifying Vegetable Glycerin and … – Game changer Emulsifying Vegetable Glycerin and … – Whoop, whoop, lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu!!!!!1 Hee, hee, hee, snicker, snark, snort, don’t you just … […]

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  2. […] Game changer Emulsifying Vegetable Glycerin and … – Whoop, whoop, lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu!!!!!1 Hee, hee, hee, snicker, snark, snort, don’t you just love it when a plan comes together? Those of ya’ll who … […]

    Reply

    • Hi skunkpharmites …
      I’m a total fan … been following this site for many years now,
      many thanks for all the advice.
      It was with much trepidation that I eventually decided to purchase the Cat homogenizing equipment….
      but I’ve run into some isues with seperation.

      I purchased the X120 with with the T10(N) impeller …
      I know you chaps used the T17 but I wanted to be able to process smaller volumes…
      and I wanted to scale the cost down somewhat as well🙂
      I have a favorite eliquid sweet tobacco mix by Craft Vapes (50/50 VG/PG with some flavoring) which I was planning to use as my new Base liquid.
      I did a Iso extraction, 48hr winterisation with 95% ethanol, cooked off the remaining alchohol and then attempted to mix at 1 ratio of 1:10 for Oil : eliquid.
      I used a hotplate stirrer to heat 80ml VG/PG mix to 80 degree C, and then added 8ml oil to the heated solution.
      Initially it works and emulsifies, but comes out of solution within 5-10 mins of letting stand. I have reattempted this at higher temps, leaving it on the stirrer heated with the stirrer running for half hour instances in between the 1-2 minute homogenising sessions…. but still no luck.

      So I’m at an impass …
      I’m trying to rule out a few things to get to a solution …

      Does it have to BHO (I’m happy with ISO for Extractions).
      Do I need to winterise longer/at a lower temperature…I’m doing 48 hours in a standard kitchen freezer.
      Could it be the eliquid I’m trying to use as a base … I thought it would actually mix more easly as using I’m 50% PG/50% VG mix … but I suppose we can’t know exactly what the original eliquid mix is comprised of.
      I intend to try it in straight VG as soon as I’ve managed to process enough oil for my next run.
      Could it be the T10 shaft instead of the T17 you used ? I really didnt think this would make any difference … functionalty of the shaft impellers is the same and RPM is the same as the T17 ?
      Any pointers would be helpful…
      as I’d like to make use of this rather expensive processing unit I’ve just purchased.
      Many thanks in advance
      cheers
      Daniel

      Reply

  3. Posted by Alex on July 21, 2016 at 1:47 AM

    So do I need to decarb befor I mix the VG and BHO or will it work well for vaping without either/or both of those steps

    Reply

  4. any new developments here on this subject?

    Reply

  5. Posted by Bongaloid on January 14, 2016 at 8:00 AM

    While I don’t find the price of the CAT setup prohibitive, I need to work with much smaller samples. That the X120 with T17 shaft needs to be inserted to a depth of 150 mm means that it is oversized for my contemplated use. I have found other homogenizers available, such as the here : http://www.katsci.com/Products/SCILOGEX-D160-Homogenizer.aspx?gclid=Cj0KEQiAq920BRC8-efn57XrotYBEiQAlVlMQ3GGk8cnuZIFf0alYDm62CHAK8SV9Nt86jpDkLmP1MMaAojG8P8HAQ
    The product information indicates that it will work in as little as .1 ml or 1 ml depending on the shaft. Can this device be used in the process described on this page? What should I look for in the components?
    Thank you so much, by the way, for all of your hard work. I rely on your research all of the time. If they had let us work with weed in Chemistry in high school, I’m sure I would have been a star pupil.

    Reply

    • With the CAT X120 Homogenizer, given the viscosity of VG, you’re going to need at minimum a T10(N) shaft and Generator. You should easily be able to process volumes smaller than 10ml if emulsified in a vessel, such as a test tube.
      Steve, CAT Scientific

      Reply

    • Posted by simplefool on January 15, 2016 at 8:40 PM

      Yes that will work just fine. I too found that Cat wasn’t altogether out of my price range but felt I could find a slightly better solution for my situation and the homogenizer I use is exactly like the one you posted a link to. Although you can likely find them cheaper, those generic homogenizers do the trick on small volume runs and have easily replaceable parts. As long as it actually spins up to 30k+ rpms (some don’t) you’ll be just fine. I got a larger Cat homogenizer and wound up shelving it for 6 of the smaller ones from Pro Scientific and have had zero issues after a few test runs to get the formulation straight.

      Reply

  6. Tween 80 (Polysorbate 80, HLB=15) stabilizes oil-in-glycerin emulsions. You need a high HLB surfactant to do this, that’s why lecithin does not work (HLB=4). Has anyone tried to do this with BHO in glycerin?

    Reply

  7. Posted by Danette on October 29, 2015 at 8:36 AM

    Following

    Reply

  8. here’s the deal…

    I first got ej from amazon, hated the taste. then bought puff because they had flavors. then switched to Vapeur because they had “flavorless” (10x better than ejmix no taste) they also had flavors which i tried out which were better than puff. I would completely recommend vapeur, customer service is amazing… btw… i forgot to mention the price point is perfect. 30ml for 16.99. come on, you can’t beat that price, more money in my pocket.

    VapeurExtract.com

    Reply

    • Posted by Captain Trips on October 14, 2015 at 4:27 PM

      O.k. but does it kick like a mule when you hit it?

      Reply

      • Definitely, It not only kicks but you actually get some VAPOR! you can see what your doing lol! it’s awesome, i’m planning on starting up cartridge business now, they sell the gallon size which makes up to 3900 grams which you cut and can make a wopping 70k profit… thats amazing my homies that are trying it out say its the best they have tried. All i can do is spread the word🙂

        http://vapeurextract.com

        Reply

        • Posted by Nick on February 1, 2016 at 7:27 PM

          If you are cutting 1g BHO to 1ml juice and selling for $40-60 a 1ml cart. wouldnt it be easier to sell the flower directly?
          I’m lost on how it’s profitable. Your reply would greatly be appreciated

          Reply

    • Posted by simplefool on November 30, 2015 at 6:55 PM

      Vapeur is just blended PG and PEG, the very additives this post is designed to avoid from what I can see. The idea is to emulsify Cannabis extract and a known, non-toxic/non-carcinogenic binder. The Japanese ministry of Health has basically banned vaping products based on their testing of 10 of the top selling e-juice providers. So, in a country that sells porn and beer out of vending machines on the street, you need a Dr’s prescription to get a nicotine based vaping product. The European Union is on the verge of banning vaping products and has been for several months. These are entire countries looking to ban nicotine based vaping products, so it doesn’t necessarily mean Cannabis products wont, at some point, fall under the same (or greater) levels of scrutiny.

      I would certainly do some more research before basing my flourishing vaping Cannabis product company upon a product that’s simply PEG/PG blended. And seriously overpriced judging by the pricing on their site, you can get bulk PG/PEG and figure out the formulation for a LOT less than you would pay through Vapeur.

      It isn’t necessarily easy, but homogenizing VG and Cannabis oil seems the best/safest way to vape Cannabis extracts presently and even that method needs MUCH more testing, we generically accept this blend for it’s more “natural” approach, as we already have the ability to process VG. It took a while, but I’m meeting with plenty of success homogenizing VG and Cannabis oil without using PG/PEG at all.

      Reply

  9. Got my EJ Mix from http://www.vaporizzy.com
    BEST PRICE!!

    Reply

    • Posted by Mark Lee on December 5, 2015 at 12:39 AM

      WARNING: This links to a malware-infested website!

      Reply

      • Wow, seriously ralph obviously you don’t have anti virus…

        Can we truly trust you?

        Btw, peg and PG are not bad for you.

        Anything usp or kosher is in your food that you are eating.

        Also check out this other killer website, now it’s peg and PG with added terpenes loll I got a free sample from them for helping me put the website together let me know what you guys think.

        Holyterp.com

        Reply

        • Posted by Simplefool on February 18, 2016 at 1:08 PM

          “Btw, peg and PG are not bad for you.”

          The intention of this post is to produce safe VAPING products containing cannabis, at no point has anyone on this thread inferred in any way whatsoever that there’s ever been anything resembling a direct link to INGESTING and VAPING. Applying your logic, anything that’s Kosher can be vaped, so why don’t you invent vaporizable hot dogs? Your logic eludes me, you sound like a company shill to me, with little to no knowledge of vaping or kosher food preparation.

          Reply

          • I think you’ve missed the point. I’m not suggesting that vaping anything kosher is ok.
            There’s no long term data, good or bad, on vaping with any of these compounds. Biologically speaking, your body breaks down glycerin and expells the waste products every time you consume a triglyceride. Your body does not normally consume pg or peg and logically, this could pose more of a risk to your health. If you feel like rolling the dice on being the person 30 years from now with some newly discovered lung disease, be my guest. I however don’t vape with any of these.

          • Posted by simplefool on February 19, 2016 at 12:20 PM

            No, the point (as I see it) is to safely emulsify cannabis oil while avoiding Lipid pneumonia (or other such nastiness) to make e-juice. The consensus being (thus far) VG as the safest method, a notion I think is backed up by the fact that I have yet to see a tutorial posted on emulsifying PEG and/or PG with cannabis oil on this site. To date I’ve only seen a brief video by Steve with Cat using the x1000d to homogenize dry ice kief with coconut oil. A video that I think should be viewed by those who don’t have the x1000d, as it’s a very informative video.

            So, no, after purchasing over $5k in Cat Scientific equipment, I think I get the point a whole lot better than most on this site to be frank. I’ve been homogenizing VG and BHO for a while, a fact GW and Steve can testify to as I’ve expounded on my experiences with them on occasion. So no, I think I likely get the point of homogenizing substances much better than most, and that is not the point whatsoever. Statements like “Btw, peg and PG are not bad for you.” appear irresponsible with zero errata. Simple, show me the data instead of doing a 180 and touting the attributes of VG, something that’s been covered here ad nauseum.

            I don’t disagree that VG is the best solution, as I’ve invested a pretty penny into the technology (a fact my previous posts clearly show) I’ve already hitched my wagon to VG. I would be fascinated if PEG/PG were proven be a safe product to vape, but that’s not the case either, and I’m positive Cat Scientific wouldn’t be involved if it were just that simple (I’m of the opinion they’re not interested in lazy chemistry). PG/PEG almost render their equipment completely useless, as most e-juice shops just spin up a VG/PG cocktail for vaping products. I’ve already hoped MCT would be the be-all-end-all to producing safe vaping products, so if ANYONE has errata that backs PEG or PG as to being safe, I wanna have a link to that site because there’s a slight possibility MCT could work, I just haven’t read anywhere that’s the case and I’ve been researching this for over 2 years. The only argument I’ve read is that BHO is an oil, vaping oil, of any kind, leads to Lipid pneumonia, so it bears that dabbing oil in copious amounts would lead to Lipid pneumonia. I haven’t heard that yet and I dab over 2 grams a day with very little ill effect to show for it, for several years now. I’m positive I haven’t caught Lipid pneumonia, but I’m no litmus test, therefore I’ve soldiered on looking for any errata I can allowing me to make the case for MCT.

            This leads me back to my original statement, simply implying that anything kosher must be safe, and therefore PG/PEG is safe, doesn’t stand to reason for me, nor does it jive with the basic overtone of this post, that being that (thus far) homogenizing cannabis oil with VG is the safest method of vaporizing cannabis oil, by default, the lesser of all evils if you will. I have not read anything quantitative leading me to change my opinion, so the statement “Btw, peg and PG are not bad for you.” piques my curiosity beyond measure. A fact I believe many would have some interest in. Or, as I’ve seen copiously, it’s simply a shill for holyterp.

            I find it REALLY interesting that anyone would vouche for a site advocating the highly scientific use of a lighter and vial to combine any concentrate imaginable with their solution; which is a blend of PG/PEG, as are all the other spammed posts about a multitude of e-juice solutions. Perhaps all the collective input on this post is completely irrelevant, I mean if holyterp has the answer with their glorified PG/PEG blend then someone at Cat Scientific, as well as some very intelligent people at Skunk Pharms missed something somewhere….

            LoL…and implying I’ve somehow missed something, after you reply to two posts, one glorifying the virtues of a (proprietary) PG-PEG blend followed closely by a post advocating the use of VG, I think when it comes to reading comprehension I’m still pretty much on track when it comes to getting the point, because I don’t think a point was made at all. Perhaps policing this forum and removing the spam is a more productive use of your time, because it’s really obvious you haven’t bothered to look at any of my other posts, and I actually own all the equipment being used, so yeah, if I don’t get the point by now I’m fairly certain (unfortunately) I likely won’t, guess I’m just dumb like that.

  10. could you use a Dremel for a drive unit to keep the cost down?

    Reply

  11. Posted by BushRoot on September 12, 2015 at 9:34 PM

    “4 Corners Cannabis” uses 50% PEG 400 and 50% VG.

    Reply

  12. Posted by Jim mcintire on July 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM

    My emulsion (solution?) remained stable. I did not add Simpson oil to ethanol… I added decarboxylated herb to ethanol and steeped for about a week. The steep was then added to a 50/50 vg/pg solution in equal parts and then evaporated to 1/2 starting volume (all EtOH and h2o should be gone). The result is an ugly greenish brown liquid that readily vapes and seems to be stable. Very low med content though…still works ok as a night night.

    Reply

  13. Posted by Quinn on July 22, 2015 at 1:14 PM

    Lazy chemistry that will undoubtedly clog and ruin atomizers. It will also provide an unequal distribution of product throughout, thereby making dosage unpredictable. It doesn’t meet a single qualification I look for before a prototype hits the sales floor.

    Reply

  14. Posted by Global on July 1, 2015 at 8:57 AM

    Any feed back on Puff Majic for Majic Vapor LLC as opposed to Ejmix or PG, Peg, VG ect…….

    Reply

  15. Posted by jim on May 16, 2015 at 7:29 AM

    Wouldnt ethanol extract work just as well without the solubility problems? Mix the EtOH extract with the VG/PG and then heat off the EtOH?

    Reply

    • Posted by dR3 on June 1, 2015 at 10:24 AM

      I imagine a combo of alcohol and (VG +/or PG) would extract reasonably well, but upon boiling off the alcohol the *goodies* would likely not be well-soluble and then need to be emulsified, via mechanical agitation or pressure or ________ ???

      Would love to hear the Pharm’s perspective on this =) !!

      Reply

      • Posted by jim on June 1, 2015 at 10:46 AM

        I went ahead and tried this a couple weeks ago and it formed an emulsion straight off…no mechanical mixing needed. The active is a little weak but the emulsion has been very stable. I plan to try a double extraction next time (1x vol of EtOH used to soak 2 volumes of plant material).

        Reply

    • Posted by Quinn on June 11, 2015 at 9:23 AM

      I did a vg + ethanol + oil mixture last night. Upon evaporating the ethanol, the oil (a simpson oil extracted in 99% iso) separated and floated to the top. So… nope!
      Ratio:
      5ml simpson oil : 120 ml v.g. : 60 ml 190 proof grain alcohol.
      Heat:
      24 min @ 250 f, reduced to 150 for 6 hours until alcohol vapor and taste is no longer present.

      While my “solvent assisted hemoginization” did not work to super-saturate the v.g., I syphoned off the glycerin from under the oil layer and loaded it up into my joyetech. definitely kicked.

      I really respect you guys at skunk pharm and use your data every day. Thanks for your brilliant and diligent work! However, I don’t believe intentionally providing consumers with a non-shelf-stable product is right, and the cost of a hemoginizer is not worth the trouble of building a tincture that will break 100% of the time imo.

      It’s not salad dressing, you can’t just shake it up lol.

      Reply

      • Posted by Whycome on July 22, 2015 at 12:58 PM

        Of course you can just shake it up. While that won’t provide long-term emulsification, much like a salad dressing it can be shaken vigorously immediately before use.
        My first lazy attempt at vaping was just squeezing some store-bought cold ethanol extract bho [hooray for living in a state where you can store-buy bho! :-)] into a tank-style vape cartridge with a bit of 50/50 PG/VG flavor juice. It doesn’t stay mixed, but it works. Hand warming, and vigorous shaking before a hit are not that much of a pain…

        Reply

        • Posted by Quinn on July 22, 2015 at 1:20 PM

          Lazy chemistry that will clog and break atomizers. Also, it produces an unpredictable dosage throughout as the second you stop emulsifying, the oil begins rebonding. Doesn’t pass a single test I would put it through before hitting the sales floor.

          Reply

  16. Posted by skyler on April 1, 2015 at 1:24 PM

    Would this work with PG?

    Reply

  17. Posted by rhu austin on March 23, 2015 at 11:15 AM

    Im courious ,can i use the hot glycerine extraction Method using vg snd poly glycerine mix to make vape pen oil.. .they use both to make vape pen liquid for tobacco…im not real technical so can you keep it simple plz ..ps do i need to decarboxulate it first .thank you for any info you can help me with .
    Rhu

    Reply

  18. Posted by fire on March 21, 2015 at 12:38 AM

    Has anyone tried blasting directly onto glycol or glycerin? Wouldn’t the butane dissolve the glycol and distribute it into the bho. This also might make it more viscous which should help in the putting process.

    Reply

    • Posted by fire on March 21, 2015 at 12:44 AM

      I meant to say the added viscosity of the glycol would allow for an extremely low temp purging process.

      Reply

      • Posted by fire on March 21, 2015 at 1:21 AM

        Actually it would prbly just freeze and stay separate. Still it might homogenize during the purging process after the glycol melts.

        Reply

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