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Booming BHOtards The Explosion of Explosions

In /butane-safety/ I shared a few tips on how to extract using flammable solvents like butane, without immolating yourself.

A thread that was shared on half a dozen forums, and even made a Sticky on PIF http://freemygreenpdx.com/topic/8354-bho-safety/ and IC Mag https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=212613 , and sanctified by the serious professionals as being both common sense and good advice, but let us not forget about the ignorant, and the pathology in the populous.

We are all ignorant on some subjects, and this thread, like the previous one, is directed at education for those with ears, but just like repeat drunk drivers plague society, the same mental pathology plagues our cannabis movement in the form of BHOtards.

Case in point, the explosions of explosions from brothers and sisters doing open butane extraction indoors, in the face of good advice to the contrary, and even involving not only fellow sociopaths, but innocent infants and pets.

Note that no indoor blasting was the first point made in my butane safety thread and I didn't leave any wiggle room, yet it is being ignored:

"For starters, I never personally do a butane extraction indoors or any confined space! None at all, zero, zip, forget about it! It is important to keep it below explosive limits!

I do it all outdoors, with a non sparking plastic fan blowing, not sucking, the butane evaporation away! Butane loves self abuse and will clump together and pool, being that it is heavier than air.

I use three fans to keep any free butane dispersed below ignition limits of 1.86% and from it pooling and accumulating in low spots like through my basement window to my basement, chock full of ignition sources.

The central point is that concentration of the butane boiling off can be kept diluted below combustion limits, by blowing the accumulating vapors away using a fan."

For those whom question just how bad is it, check out the 19 page IC Mag thread starting at https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=266761.

A personal salute to IC Mag and the brothers and sisters who have taken the time to search out and record the contents of the thread so as to spread the awareness. Thank all of ya'll who've posted data on it, and saved me hours of effort.

Sooooooooooo, enough is enough, this thread is a call to arms against BHOtardisim, to stop the insanity and proactively avoid a wide pendulum swing reaction to the growing carnage, from our detractors and the general public in the form of draconian laws that we won't like.

BHOtardisim is hereafter to be defined as follows:

WIKI: BHOtardisim.

Archaic: An epithet coined by BHO detractors as a taunt.

Current: A mental deficiency leading the afflicted narcissistic sociopath to discount all input from others and open extract using butane indoors, or in a hap hazard manner, so as to endanger themselves, other life, and property.

So incompetent as to be unaware of how incompetent they are, they have no compassion for other life, and actually believe themselves uniquely insightful and smarter than the gods whom taunt them.

They are the repeat offender "drunken drivers" in the cannabis extraction netherworld.

The call to arms is three fold:

Educate, educate, educate the noobes; in this we are our brothers keeper. They will listen to us before the general authority figures, because those same authority figures already told them that if they played with them selves they would go blind and crazy, not have sexual intercourse outside marriage, and that marijuana was a Class III drug, with no medical benefits. You can see how that has played out............

Educate the public, so that they realize that we are all not pariah outlaw cowboys, indiscriminately blowing people and property up.

Educate both groups that BHO is also extracted using safer and more environmentally friendly closed circuit extraction and recycle systems.

My thoughts are that if we don't somehow educate both our members and the general public, and do all that we can to bring this thing under some semblance of control, that the control option will be exercised by others and we won't like the new laws that they come up with.

A perfect example of the few, wrecking things for the masses and a problem that mankind will always face as long as there is pathology in the populous.

Us'ns aren't likely to have much effect on the pathology, but we can educate and save the ignorant ones, and maybe not be painted with the same brush by as large a portion of the rest of our brothers and sisters.

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81 Comments

  1. john davis

    I am Indra who posted the original BHO post in 1999. People are still killing them selves over this and doing it outside is no grantee of being safe. if its not in a powerful fume-hood venting outdoors, your a fool. see how many have burnt because they fooled themselves into think it is safe and easy. worked 3 or 6 times? beware, the more relaxed you become, the closer you edge to danger.

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  2. sota

    im a certified welder and I design and build systems under the 710 tech brand. I agree with everything you have mentioned. I had the luxury of meeting carol at this past Denver cup. we had so many agreements on the industry and the equipment. even people you skunk pharm has had photos with. ive designed 2 major units for so called major name sand the moment they where certified Colorado rating they stole my design kicked me to the curb and subbed the job to importers. I urge you all to take a look at passive systems and units that are actually built by the gentlemen selling them to you. all of our units meet and exceed asme, ansi, and aws standards. please feel free to look us up on instagram 710techclosedloop. thank you for all that you do greywolf and also ask if you could give testimony in a Colorado courtroom. either way thank you for the years of free information and correct information. forever your humble supporter sota pop

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  3. Green Dean

    Greywolf, I can't decide if I admire you, pity you, or wanna slap you. I JUST came back from Co. Yes. It's like a buncha moonshiners who jello'd the cannabis gene pool I once knew and loved. (Do you realize you are asking teacher for homework tho?) Once big industry buys in, it's all but over, and this becomes moot/too costly for all but them to care about as (wildly hypothetical idea) 150 square foot closed loop systems crank out ten pounds shatter for 2.00 dose and it's in every liquor store for less maybe in 10:years. Admire competent people in general tho. Nice read.

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  4. Zack

    Hello! I wanted to leave a post here similar to the nature of yours, It seems a lot of companies are selling "Consumer ready" butane extractors (first off I don't think that should even be a thing) but secondly, virtually none of them are safe to use, or produce a healthy extraction. So, what is a "safe extractor", again, ill restate, these probably shouldn't be sold as consumer level devices but heck, lets define that. Im studying engineering, and According to standard practice, if i want to make something with a potentially large hazard, and i want to make it so a consumer can use it, then, i should figure out every operating parameter of the device, and design it to withstand double that at least, at every possible point. That is common knowledge among engineers and is a basic practice incorporated into so many aspects of every thing we touch use and build its insanity. So use this definition of "Safe" I will compose my list of concerns. DO not buy a dry ice column extractor, the dry ice cools the triclamps to -100f (theoretically) most companies selling these state they get down to -70f which is still well below the rated limit for VITON BUNA N and PTFE seals. Many companies advise using alcohol to wash your containment chamber to get all of your extract, this is possible with welded bottom lids, and VITON and PTFE (although PTFE in the size youll need probably wont hold a "safe" pressure), BUNA which most companies are selling as its the cheaper elastomer seal, which will dissolve in alcohol. There are multiple NPT ball valves available, and many styles are used in varying machines, THEY MUSH BE SANITARY, if this isn't stated then they have seals that can be dissolved, leaded materials, or are greased. Some companies use an "Economy triclamp ball valve" this ball valve is NOT sanitary and will leak butane, ive talked with the supplier of these and he specifically says you need to use an encapsulated PTFE valve (its the only readily available triclamp valve thats up to the task). Many companies will use a main dump valve that is not a ball valve, EI its a butterfly, or a diaphragm, Both of these valves use either EPDM seals (which dissolve) or silicone seals (which cannot handle cold temperatures, it becomes brittle and will flake into your extract, too many uses will destroy the seals integrity and it will fail). If any more come to mind ill post a reply but i figured this bit of knowledge would be worth sharing, I hope someone finds this useful. Cheers. PS virtually no commercially available units come with safety features such as, check valves, pressure reliefs, or gauges (and i mean a gauge on your column, tank and collection base)

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  5. Penny

    Does this product work http://www.milestonesci.com/products/microwave-extraction.html and why or why not? Thank you guys so much for your knowledge and compassion.

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  6. C3H8_head

    According to the TR-21 user manual "DANGER EXPLOSION RISK-Do not recover flammable refrigerants" http://www.cpsproducts.com/pdf/TR21_Man.pdf

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  7. Robert e

    Hey good post. Also thanks to Catalyst for the info on the pump.(you didn't have to yell though). I'm currently working (hard) to build a commercial, co2 extractor, which is outside this forum, but.... I wanted to give my 2 cents worth on your post. Bryan S. you did the right things, talking to the engineers and getting recommendations. You still ended up with a crap machine full of problems. A real shame and a reflection on the industry. (Hope there were some guarantees with the sale). The BHO industry (and CO2 industry) is very new and ripe with egotistical engineers designing and selling bad machines, as well as scam artists. (I know why you put the engineers in quotes). It has spread to the supply industry, even in China, which manufacturers 95% of your sanitary spools and tubes, fittings, pumps, etc.They also manufacture a lot of the CO2 extractors, especially building sized. Do your research and know exactly what is required, in your setup. Make the manufacturer prove or support their claims even down to the materials offered. Not all sellers are honest. (Especially if you find them on Alibaba.com or madeinchina.com or..... what a bunch thieves mixed with honest manufacturers). I always check references. Do your research, bad construction, bad method, wrong materials and the wrong ancillary equipement can have grave repercussions. (Very pretty explosions or like extracts full of heavy metal because you used the wrong refrigerant pump.) I want this industry to flourish (BHO and CO2 and solvent extractions, etc.). It's up to us, the manufacturers to clean it up! We must also prove our products. No one else will. These extractions are used as medicine and we must be up to pharmaceutical standards. We owe it to our clients and the medical patients trying to cure their ailments. Let's keep up the communications and keep educating ourselves. Cheers Robert e

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  8. Bryan S

    My first hands on experience with any closed loop extractor was an Isolation Extractor 1lb unit. I met the "engineers" behind the scheme a friend of a friend contacted me asking for help showing him the process of making honeycomb with his new CLS. I saw the machine and asked where all the parts were. He replied "oh the guys who made it cut it down to only the needed parts. Over the next week the amount of part failures was to many to count on one hand. First the quick fittings failed on the butane canister. Then the quick fittings failed on the collection pot. Shortly after replacing all quick fittings with threaded fittings the valves they had supplied us with failed too (cheap little plastic chinese valves) Had to replace those with SS ball valves. Once we finally got every gasket and valve on the machine replaced and quick connect fitting changed to screw fitting we were inspecting the machine to finally run it and noted the sight glass had a crack in it. We had to replace this as well. Finally got to run the machine with my friend after refitting EVERY FACET of it.............. He was showing me the "operating instructions" as shared with him... when he got to the part of "burping the collection pot to allow more butane flow" I had to stop him these machines are going to end closed loop extraction in the state of colorado for sure. I am glad they now require safety testing of some sort and wish I had experience with a real closed loop machine.

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  9. CATALYST

    USE A WELCH CHEMICAL DUTY FAST DRY PUMP PEOPLE!!!!!!!! MADE IN THE USA. ALL WETTED PARTS ARE MADE TO HANDLE HARSH SOLVENTS. PUMPS ARE ACTUALLY MADE TO BE USED FOR SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS. HOW STUPID ARE YOU TO USE A HVAC PUMP FOR A CHEMICAL/FOOD GRADE APPLICATION? AND PEOPLE ARE ON HERE TALKING ABOUT SAFETY, LOL YOU CRACK ME UP. HOW DO THOSE CHINESE MADE SEALS AND PLASTIC PARTS TASTE IN YOUR CONTAMINATED BHO FROM YOUR GARBAGE PUMP? PROBABLY CAN'T TASTE IT BUT ARE PROBABLY GETTING CANCER AS I TYPE. PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES.....GEEZ. I WORK FOR AN INDUSTRIAL RUBBER DISTRIBUTOR AND DEAL WITH PUMPS AND DIFFERENT RUBBERS/POLYMERS ALL DAY EVERY DAY. FOOD GRADE APPLICATIONS AND FABRICATIONS AS WELL. I HAVE A CUSTOM EXTRACTOR I BUILT THAT IS ALL FOOD GRADE AND 100% EXCELLENT RATING FOR ALL SOLVENTS USED. WHY IN THE HELL WOULD I WANT TO RUIN ALL THAT WITH A HVAC PUMP? I ALSO AM A DISTRIBUTOR FOR DIXON VALVE AND QUICK COUPLING. ONE OF OUR MANY VENDORS. AMERICAN MADE AGAIN. THE QUICK DISCONNECTS I USE ARE FROM THEM AND ARE 316 SS AND HANDLE 10,000 PSI. THEY ARE QUALITY. THEY DO NOT LEAK. YOU BUY SHEET YOU GET SHEET, TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT. PARKER IS AS WELL BUT I WOULDN'T BUY THEIR IMPORT/CHINESE STUFF FOR THIS APPLICATION. BALL VALVES IN ANY SYSTEM ARE GARBAGE. DUE TO THE DESIGN WHEN YOU CLOSE THEM YOU GET A SMALL AMOUNT OF RESIDUAL LEFT IN THE VALVE. USE PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE NEEDLE VALVES. HANDLE EITHER 10,000 OR 6,000 PSI. ARE 316 SS AS WELL. MUCH BETTER CONTROL OVER YOUR SYSTEM AS WELL WHEN BLASTING, SOAKING, POWER WASHING, IN LINE DEWAXING /WINTERIZING, AND/OR RECOVERING. OH YEA MY SYSTEM DOES ALL THOSE FUNCTIONS AS WELL. WAY BETTER THAN ANYTHING I HAVE YET TO LAY EYES ON. ALSO DEIGNED TO EASILY DO ANYWHERE BETWEEN 1/2 OZ TO 50 LBS PER RUN. YES YOU HAVE TO CHANGE OUT A FEW PARTS OBVIOUSLY BUT ONLY THE COLLECTION AND BLAST CHAMBERS. MY SIGHT GLASS HAS 1/4" GLASS AND WAS HYDO TESTED FOR HALF AN HOUR AT 150 PSI. I USE NEEDLE VALVES ALL OVER MY SYSTEM. PRETTY MUCH AT EVERY MAIN POINT AND ON EVERY TANK. I COULD EASILY REMOVE IF I WANTED AND NOT LOOSE A THING AS FAR AS FUNCTIONALITY. ALWAYS BEEN LESS WORRIED ABOUT IT COLLAPSING IN INSTEAD OF BLOWING OUT ANYWAY. ALL WELDS WERE DONE BY A CUSTOM SS FAB SHOP AND POLISHED BACK TO FOOD GRADE LEVELS. MY COST AND I GET STUFF CHEAP AS A DISTRIBUTOR WITH PUMP......... JUST OVER $6K. OK ONE LAST THING AND ILL CHILL. IF YOU USE PTFE OR ANY THREAD TAPE, PLEASE STOP. YES THE TAPE ITSELF IS PTFE AKA TEFLON AND HANDLES BUTANE FINE. BUT GUESS WHAT PTFE IS NOT STICKY. THE ADHESIVE USED ON THAT PTFE TAPE IS GUESS WHAT. WAIT FOR IT............SILICONE. GARBAGE. YOU WILL PROBABLY GET LEAKS EVENTUALLY IF YOU ARE USING THIS. THE ONLY OTHER PTFE TAPE I AM AWARE OF THAT DOES NOT USE SILICONE AS AN ADHESIVE USES ACRYLIC. NOT THE SAME ACRYLIC YOU ARE PROBABLY THINKING OF EITHER. LIKE WHAT LIGHTERS ARE MADE OF. NOT THAT. ALSO I CALLED SEVERAL MANUFACTURES AND IT DOES NOT HAVE A RATING FOR BUTANE. THIS IS BECAUSE NO ON HAS EVER TESTED IT. SO IT MIGHT BE OK. I USE A NON-PTFE FOOD GRADE BUTANE AND SOLVENT SAFE PIPE PASTE. IT'S BLUE. CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE COMPANY OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. GOD BLESS HAPPY BLASTING THE HOLY GRAIL BY CATALYST

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    1. skunkpharmresearch

      Key points presented as I see it are: 1.0 Refrigerant recovery machines are poisoning the cannabis industry. 1.1 Refrigerant Recovery Machines are Poisoning the Cannabis Industry Click here to read the article at it's source 1.2 Refrigerant recovery devices are in no way “food-safe” and do not utilize commonly accepted practices for devices utilized to make products for human consumption 1.3 The butane/cannabis oil mix stays combined until it makes contact with the piston and the butane flashes off, leaving the oil behind. As this piston moves rapidly back and forth it gets coated in a very sticky THC oil that further heats up, solidifies and works to deteriorate the piston gasket to form a bluish black colored sludge. When non-contaminated butane runs past this sludge it re-dissolves this gasket/cannabis oil mixture and passes it into the recovery tank, or back into the oil. When users of refrigerant recovery devices have to replace the piston seals, which is a common occurrence, it is due to oil contaminating and destroying the piston seals, or from operation without lubrication. This “gasket oil”, which has found its way into the BHO extraction, is then being ingested by the end user who receives the oil at a cannabis dispensary. While some extraction machine manufacturers have taken steps to create a system where the butane/propane only contacts food safe materials such as stainless steel, they seem to have overlooked the fact that the internal tubing of the refrigerant recovery machines are made from copper, brass and aluminum. Copper, when exposed to oxygen and moisture, creates copper oxide and copper carbonate, these are a black and green corrosions of copper which when smoked leads to a condition called Metal Fume Fever, symptoms of which include fever, chills, nausea, headache, fatigue, muscle aches, shortness of breath, chest pain, shock, collapse and or convulsions. When copper, brass and aluminum and are exposed to water, oxygen and acidic environments they produce sulfides and oxides which are being washed down into the extracted oils, and then smoked by consumers. 1.4 The second problem is that when you have a fast moving piston coupled with the lack of lubrication, the result is a high amount of friction heat. We spoke directly to a manufacturer of a refrigerant recovery device on this topic and the results were shocking to say the least. We were told that they regularly receive failed units back from customers that have clearly been using for the cannabis extractions. Upon receiving the units they were disassembled and it was determined that the reason many of these unit are failing is that due to the lack of lubrication, the pistons are overheating, swelling, grinding, and/or disintegrating, causing them to seize up. These pistons were made from a combination of lead and aluminum and covered with plasma coated chromium. We were told the only place these disintegrated piston particulates have to go is through the lines, into the extraction. The effects of smoking chromium are too numerous to mention, much less the inhalation of lead or aluminum fumes. To make things worse these companies can develop the technology to fix this issue, but the engineer we spoke to was told by higher ups in the company to cease and desist any effort to make this process safe until the laws regarding marijuana change in the state these machines are built in. 1.5 Where are the butane soluble “evil spirits” coming from? 1.5.1 If there were this composite PTFE/lead/chromium sludge created, how would it be washed off and transported? Butane is a fully saturated simple Alkane, into which none of the PTFE composite piston sleeve components are soluble. Nor any metal, nor metal oxide, sulfate, or carbonate (?). It has a dielectric constant of around 1.4. One reason they use PTFE, is that it isn’t soluble in most organic solvents. It is left smeared on the cylinder wall and piston specifically because it is insoluble. 1.5.2 A piston requires a high strength, temperable alloy, so why would they pay the premium for one of the limited number of aluminum alloys utilizing .5% pB for machinability, when they don’t meet those high strength requirements. The piston has all the appearances of being hard anodized, not plasma sprayed. Why would they plasma spray chromium and finish it, when aluminum oxide hard anodizing is less expensive and almost as hard as diamonds, and atomically bonded, besides not requiring subsequent finishing. Hard enough that aluminum oxide grinding wheels are typically used to grind chromium. The piston is protected from cylinder contact by the piston sleeve, which seriously leaks long before there is enough wear for piston to cylinder wall contact. Piston’s shatter, not from simple overheating, but in most cases from ingesting a slug of liquid and instantly stopping the piston going full speed, in a hydraulic lock. Slugs and sips of liquids are a fuck up, and means the process is not being followed, or the liquid would not reach the pump inlet. There is no “special little groove” for the lubricant, there is a groove for the sleeve, which will trap some lubricant at its edges, but the sleeve is lubricated by the butane on the cylinder wall. Not the slight bit it can carry in a tight seam that is being pressed tighter by its direction of travel against frictional resistance. When it isn’t there, the sliding friction increases and when under vacuum, there is no moving gas stream to carry away the heat. PTFE has an upper operating temperature of about 260C/500F, which it will eventually reach and the material will flow and lose its mechanical properties. Under the sleeve is an o-ring to provide compression at that point, but when baked at high heat for long periods, they lose their resilience. There is no catastrophic failure, it just wears and deforms enough to no longer seal and it will no longer reach the vacuum levels it once would and takes forever to recover. Hard to miss that something isn’t right as time wears on. 1.53 Ingesting oil, does leave the oil behind, which glazes over on the wall and sticks the piston sleeve to the piston, compromising the seal, making them unusable until the glaze is removed and the seal replaced. 2.0 Purveyors of recycle equipment are so profit motivated as to recommend unsafe equipment to the gullible public. 2.1 In order to make a profit, the manufacturers of these extraction devices are selling and recommending these extremely dangerous refrigerant recovery machines to their customers and telling them that they are safe to operate. The simple fact is they are not. 2.2 Too vague. Who? The article makes it sound like common practice and SOP for most. I regularly converse with extractor makers looking for a solution to an affordable recovery pump at ma and pa prices, which is rated for flammable recovery. That is no deep dark secret and if a vendor is representing them as certified for the purpose to customers, we should know specifically who, rather than painting all the potential competitors of the author with the same brush. 2.3 What I mostly see, is folks buying the oil less recovery units after being told that they are not explosion proof, simply because they know they work and can’t afford the alternatives that are explosion proof. They also consider the risk low enough to make those decisions. 2.4 Given that they aren’t explosion proof, we might why there haven’t been a flurry of recycle system explosions and the answer lies with the magnitude of the risk. Butane has a combustible range of 1.6% to 8.4% and requires an ignition source. Unless catastrophic, leaks by piston seals never vent butane at a high enough rate to reach 1.6% of the atmosphere, especially with their fans dispersing the leaked gas. Most folks are also using them outdoors or in a properly ventilated enclosure as recommended by reputable manufacturers. Nothing is ever so fool proof as to ignore the possibility of something going wrong and to prepare for the worst case scenario. 3.0 Manufacturers of recovery companies are so profit motivated as to stand back and do nothing, while reaping the rewards. 3.1 We looked into why the refrigerant recovery manufactures have turned a blind eye, allowing their machines to be sold to companies and individuals that they know are going to utilize them in dangerous solvent based cannabis extractions. We have spoken with representatives from refrigerant recovery pump manufactures including Appion and Diablo with both companies stating that they know that these units are going to the cannabis extraction industry, but that they are unable or unwilling to speak of it on record or address it out of fear of the potential liabilities. 3.2 My experience has been just the opposite, and that companies like Appion have made it more than clear that they don’t want our business. Their published statements appear to fly in the face of the above argument. 3.2.1 In response to the dangerous practice of incorporating these recovery machines into extraction devices, Appion, the makers of the Appion G5, widely utilized in the cannabis extraction industry, has released an Urgent Industry Safety Alert titled “Hydrocarbon Explosion Hazards with Refrigerant Recovery Machines.” 4.0 Anyone who disagrees with or tries to refute their post has ulterior and nefarious motives. 4.1 We believe that the only voices that will argue against what we have presented here will be the ones who have the most to gain and profiteer from continuing to process and sell possibly contaminated oils using unsafe methods, with the potential liability of property damage or the physical harm of their friends, home or workplace. 4.2 Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! “You can trust only us, cause we have no ulterior motives and we won’t ejaculate in your mouth like those other rascals will!” 5.0 Even in states where regulation exists, it doesn’t cover his concerns 5.1 Normally, device manufacturers would be regulated by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) or the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), or at a minimum one of the agencies that regulate this type of activity on a state by state level. While there is some amount of regulation of these devices in Colorado and Washington, there is a complete lack in all other medical states. Further, we do not believe the regulations that do exist properly address the issues we have raised in this document. 5.2 Hopefully, with the strict requirements now placed on extraction machines in Colorado and Washington, fire marshals and regulatory agencies will in no way authorize a unit that was designed to operate with a flammable refrigerant recovery machine. 5.3 While there is some amount of regulation of these devices in Colorado and Washington, there is a complete lack in all other medical states. Further, we do not believe the regulations that do exist properly address the issues we have raised in this document. J 5.4 Cutting to the chase, the extraction industry is rapidly growing and does need standards, but for all extraction devices, not just those using refrigerant recovery machines. It is also not blind to the legitimate issues raised, or naïve enough to embrace fanciful myth. CENTA was founded by a CA law firm and industry leaders to write those standards before they are legislated to us and actively doing so. I was recruited as a member and am directly supporting their efforts in those areas which I have insight, such as concentrate extraction. There will be zero edge given for the purpose of promoting one process or manufacturer over the other, such as the post in question rampantly does. There also is no question that all devices used in licensed commercial extraction facilities, will be required to meet ANSI/ASME Pharma/NEC/NFPA standards, which addresses any pumps not meeting NEMA 7, or food standards. Leaders in the analytical lab industry also volunteering at CENTA are also writing inspection standards, about what testing is required, who can perform it, and how it is to be performed. It is fair to say that currently we need better standardization of cannabis labs, so that the same sample gets the same results within reasonable tolerance, regardless of how many times you split off samples to other labs and all check for the same things It is not fair to say that it is not so far out of control that even in those places where the folks are addressing the issues, that they lack the deep insight of posts author as they state. 6.0 The equipment doesn’t meet NEMA 7, Div II NEC requirements. 6.1 The only small oil less refrigerant pumps certified to NEMA 7 that I’m aware of, is the Haskel. 6.2 It presents none of the issues brought up, and is certified for its use recovering butane, so the full court attack on that whole segment of the full powered hydrocarbon extraction industry is moot. 6.3 As WolfWurx supplies only the Haskel with our turnkey systems, I have no personal dog in this fight, but I do feel the need to voice my opinion on the matters in question. 7.0 The equipment does not maintain a bubble tight seal and loses great amounts of butane and creates an explosive atmosphere: 7.1 The first warning is that the unit should be only operated in well ventilated areas. The very simple reason for this is because the refrigerant recovery pump leaks during normal operation. Normally the concern would be that it leaks refrigerant vapors into an enclosed area. Under use in a BHO extraction in leaks highly flammable butane or propane. This is apparent from the second warning. There is a listed refrigerant loss of less than 3% listed on the side of the recovery machines. That does not mean zero percent, but rather just somewhere less than three percent. This negates the whole purpose of a “closed-loop” extraction system where the industry should be striving to recover all of the hydrocarbon liquids and gasses being used. In addition, we found that when sitting idle, these refrigerant recovery units will continue to leak the entire flammable contents of the extraction machine, usually a GALLON or MORE of liquid butane or propane, overnight into the structures they are operating in. With butane having an approximate expansion rate of 270 to 1, that gallon of liquid butane now becomes 270 gallons of gaseous butane, which mixed with oxygen is more than enough to entirely demolish a structure. 7.2 I have no doubt that a blown piston seal will leak a gallon or more overnight into a structure if left sitting, but that does beg several questions. 7.2.1 Why was a machine with a badly blown seal being used? 7.2.2 Why was the tank valve not closed while sitting over night? 7.2.3 What is the machine doing in a structure that is not specifically designed and ventilated for extraction? 7.2.4 Does that mean the solution they are proposing is “Certified” for indoor use? 7.2.5 If we are discussing lack of maintenance, what happens when the seals on their passive system deteriorate or loosen and start to leak? 8.0 They will be selling the soon to be patented solution. 8.1 Udoxi Scientific in Portland, Oregon likewise have developed equipment and methods that do not require the use of recovery pumps and are able to produce extractions on a large scale. We at Xtractix Corporation have partnered with http://www.facebook.com/connoisseur.concentrates to develop pump-less technology and currently have technology that allows for a contaminant free extraction that does not need the use of refrigerant recovery pumps, copper, brass or electrical assistance of any kind. These machines will be available over the coming weeks once we have finished and filed our patent. 8.2 How will they patent a passive recovery solution already filed for by Tamisium in 2010 and which I also posted on line as Lil Terp, and FOAF predated us both with posts, by several years? 8.3 How will they meet ANSI/ASME with the tubular Borosilicate tank/sight glass? 8.4 How do they remove Mystery Oil with their system? 8.5 I am immediately suspicious and repelled by any sales pitch that starts out demonizing their competitors, all the pump manufacturers, and anyone who disagrees with him. 8.6 Such a sales approach appears to presume that the product is so inferior that it can’t be sold on its own merits, so the competitive products must be denigrated. 8.7 Magicians call that misdirection. Peace, Graywolf

      Reply
      1. bradly

        Just so you know, Xtractix's new models of passive extracting machines will come with optional ports w/flare fittings so you can run a refrigerant pump with them! Ha, ha, ha. what a joke. they dress like mod's too -or vampires.

        Reply
    2. andy

      was wondering about more details on these welch chemical duty pumps. are these to be used instead of the regular vacuum pump or in place of the refrigerant pump? looking for some advice as I just purchased a 1lb bhogart system and do not have a refrigerant pump yet as I was not comfortable using the appion. want to know exactly what model would best suit my system. Also was wondering if anyone out there knows exactly what changes I would have to make o the bhogart system before it is SAFE to operate. thanks in advance for any advice, and I love the way you guys spread the knowledge. mad respect.

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      1. skunkpharmresearch

        We like the 2054 for our ovens, an AC vacuum pump for initial evacuation, and a Haskel recovery pump on our extractors. Here is information on the Welch pump. http://welchvacuum.com/collections/laboratory-vacuum-pumps-oil-free-pumps/products/part-2054b-01 . I would have to see a picture of your BHOgart to have any thoughts on its safety. We are testing a CM EP OL certified for R-600/600A, which so far has met our requirements and continues to put in it's hours in a production lab without incident. I will be posting a thread on that shortly.

        Reply
    3. skunkpharmresearch

      USE A WELCH CHEMICAL DUTY FAST DRY PUMP PEOPLE!!!!!!!! MADE IN THE USA. ALL WETTED PARTS ARE MADE TO HANDLE HARSH SOLVENTS. PUMPS ARE ACTUALLY MADE TO BE USED FOR SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS. We actually do use the Welch Chemical duty pumps in applications where they work. In this case they don’t. HOW STUPID ARE YOU TO USE A HVAC PUMP FOR A CHEMICAL/FOOD GRADE APPLICATION? AND PEOPLE ARE ON HERE TALKING ABOUT SAFETY, LOL YOU CRACK ME UP. How is the Haskel contaminating the solvent it reclaims and how is it unsafe? HOW DO THOSE CHINESE MADE SEALS AND PLASTIC PARTS TASTE IN YOUR CONTAMINATED BHO FROM YOUR GARBAGE PUMP? PROBABLY CAN’T TASTE IT BUT ARE PROBABLY GETTING CANCER AS I TYPE. PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES…..GEEZ. Don’t know, tests never show any to be present. We also use US made valves and seals, as well as US made pumps rated for their purpose. I WORK FOR AN INDUSTRIAL RUBBER DISTRIBUTOR AND DEAL WITH PUMPS AND DIFFERENT RUBBERS/POLYMERS ALL DAY EVERY DAY. FOOD GRADE APPLICATIONS AND FABRICATIONS AS WELL. So proud for you. It would be more impressive to offer concrete facts, rather that capitalized “shouted” opinions and creditials. I HAVE A CUSTOM EXTRACTOR I BUILT THAT IS ALL FOOD GRADE AND 100% EXCELLENT RATING FOR ALL SOLVENTS USED. WHY IN THE HELL WOULD I WANT TO RUIN ALL THAT WITH A HVAC PUMP? Define HVAC pump? The Haskel is simply a pump that also works in that application. I ALSO AM A DISTRIBUTOR FOR DIXON VALVE AND QUICK COUPLING. I’ve used Dixon, but switched to American made AT, after noting Made in China cast on the side of a 2” sanitary valve. ONE OF OUR MANY VENDORS. AMERICAN MADE AGAIN. THE QUICK DISCONNECTS I USE ARE FROM THEM AND ARE 316 SS AND HANDLE 10,000 PSI. THEY ARE QUALITY. THEY DO NOT LEAK. YOU BUY SHEET YOU GET SHEET, TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT. PARKER IS AS WELL BUT I WOULDN’T BUY THEIR IMPORT/CHINESE STUFF FOR THIS APPLICATION. BALL VALVES IN ANY SYSTEM ARE GARBAGE. DUE TO THE DESIGN WHEN YOU CLOSE THEM YOU GET A SMALL AMOUNT OF RESIDUAL LEFT IN THE VALVE. USE PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE NEEDLE VALVES. HANDLE EITHER 10,000 OR 6,000 PSI. ARE 316 SS AS WELL. MUCH BETTER CONTROL OVER YOUR SYSTEM AS WELL WHEN BLASTING, SOAKING, POWER WASHING, IN LINE DEWAXING /WINTERIZING, AND/OR RECOVERING. Yet with an abysmal CV, slow to open, and hard to clean for sanitary use. OH YEA MY SYSTEM DOES ALL THOSE FUNCTIONS AS WELL. WAY BETTER THAN ANYTHING I HAVE YET TO LAY EYES ON. ALSO DEIGNED TO EASILY DO ANYWHERE BETWEEN 1/2 OZ TO 50 LBS PER RUN. YES YOU HAVE TO CHANGE OUT A FEW PARTS OBVIOUSLY BUT ONLY THE COLLECTION AND BLAST CHAMBERS. MY SIGHT GLASS HAS 1/4″ GLASS AND WAS HYDO TESTED FOR HALF AN HOUR AT 150 PSI. I USE NEEDLE VALVES ALL OVER MY SYSTEM. PRETTY MUCH AT EVERY MAIN POINT AND ON EVERY TANK. I COULD EASILY REMOVE IF I WANTED AND NOT LOOSE A THING AS FAR AS FUNCTIONALITY. ALWAYS BEEN LESS WORRIED ABOUT IT COLLAPSING IN INSTEAD OF BLOWING OUT ANYWAY. ALL WELDS WERE DONE BY A CUSTOM SS FAB SHOP AND POLISHED BACK TO FOOD GRADE LEVELS. MY COST AND I GET STUFF CHEAP AS A DISTRIBUTOR WITH PUMP……… JUST OVER $6K. OK ONE LAST THING AND ILL CHILL. IF YOU USE PTFE OR ANY THREAD TAPE, PLEASE STOP. YES THE TAPE ITSELF IS PTFE AKA TEFLON AND HANDLES BUTANE FINE. BUT GUESS WHAT PTFE IS NOT STICKY. THE ADHESIVE USED ON THAT PTFE TAPE IS GUESS WHAT. WAIT FOR IT…………SILICONE. GARBAGE. YOU WILL PROBABLY GET LEAKS EVENTUALLY IF YOU ARE USING THIS. THE ONLY OTHER PTFE TAPE I AM AWARE OF THAT DOES NOT USE SILICONE AS AN ADHESIVE USES ACRYLIC. NOT THE SAME ACRYLIC YOU ARE PROBABLY THINKING OF EITHER. LIKE WHAT LIGHTERS ARE MADE OF. NOT THAT. ALSO I CALLED SEVERAL MANUFACTURES AND IT DOES NOT HAVE A RATING FOR BUTANE. THIS IS BECAUSE NO ON HAS EVER TESTED IT. SO IT MIGHT BE OK. I USE A NON-PTFE FOOD GRADE BUTANE AND SOLVENT SAFE PIPE PASTE. IT’S BLUE. CAN’T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE COMPANY OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. GOD BLESS HAPPY BLASTING THE HOLY GRAIL BY CATALYST We actually do use the Welch Chemical duty pumps in applications where they work and are working with Welch on pump development. In this case they don’t make a pump suitable for our extractors. How is the Haskel contaminating the solvent it reclaims and how is it unsafe? Don’t know how Chinese made seals and plastic taste in our BHO, because tests have never revealed any to be present. We also use US made valves and seals, as well as US made pumps rated for their purpose. So proud of your employment position and hope it’s paying you the big bucks. It is more impressive to the audience if you present concrete facts, vis a vis capitalized (shouted down at us) opinions, and qualifications of your credentials. Define HVAC pump? The Haskel is simply a pump that also works in our application. I’ve used Dixon, but switched to US made AT, after noting Made in China cast on the side of a 2” sanitary valve. Needle valves are excellent for metering, but typically have an abysmal CV and are slow to open, besides being hard to clean in sanitary applications. You make some good points, and propound your opinions loudly, but do not appear to have done much homework before shouting down at us.

      Reply
  10. Wisdom_mfg

    I just want to thank you guys for all the work you've done and more importantly, made available the valuable data from your research. I read this piece last week and immediately unplugged my Appion G5. Then I ordered the the CPS TR21. I just finished my first run with it and although it's quieter than the Appion, I think it's slightly less powerful. However, safety first!! Thank you very very much for bringing this issue to light!!! You guys are really doing a great service to the community, please keep it up!!! - wisdom_mfg

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  11. momentum333

    Good Day G.W. and Skunk farm crew! I first off have to thank you all for all of your time and support that you've given so generously. I, like many others know Skunk Pharm as a household name. I was recently forwarded this link. http://www.xtractix.com/refrigerant-recovery-machines-are-poisoning-the-cannabis-industry/ I have been using Appion for the past two years. I find this troublesome and would like to upgrade my pump to the highest known standard of health and safety. Please advise. .

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    1. Bruce

      Interesting article. The tone did seem a touch sensationalistic in places (an average of more than one recovery pump-related explosion a week? Really?) and obviously they have an agenda in promoting their own pumpless systems, which do sound quite intriguing. Still, I must admit I've been worrying so much about the dangers to me personally that I haven't really considered the metal toxicity and food safety angles. Clearly I should. Does the TR21 use copper parts? How about the mighty Haskell?

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  12. r0kud

    There are non-valved quick connects that will work with butane. We've been using Parker SST-2/SST-3 quick couplings for over 8 months with no incident. All buna seals and couplings rated at 3,000 PSI. Admittedly the valved quick connects are problematic when it comes to flow, and provide a false sense of security. Proper inspection of gaskets and regular replacement of seals is essential for sound operation.

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  13. Disposition84

    After seeing the isolation extractor guys at cannabis cup offering their elixer unit for about 1k I was curious and got one and I would agree with GW on the quality. Leaky seals in the quick connects were a nonstop headache, shipped with a cracked glass sight, as well as many other faulty products and leaky gaskets. They made right by sending replacements, but still a substandard machine that I've got collecting dust as it's not even worth selling.

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    1. ConcentrateCharlie

      Things i didnt like about my extractor from IE -Lubricant on ball valves and quick connects (there's a small amount of lubricating oil on the ball valves and quick connects when they come from the factory so that they move smoothly and dont rust. I Had to spend time cleaning all the parts of my extractor with iso very thoroughly before i used it. -Use of (excessive) pipe dope. ( I had a replacement part shipped after i bought the extractor due to a leak, the replacement fittings were caked with pipe dope, so much that it was just crumbling right off the fitting and making a mess every where. -Leaky fitting on BUTANE TANK ( The non rated butane tank that they give you to use as a recovery tank, mine had a leaky fitting on the 1/4'' TEE i had to get a replacement and re tighten it. -Welds(as you pointed out they are not welded on both inside and outside, i feel like this could be a problem eventually -Use of 304 china SS over 316 USA SS ( just feel like you can cheap out and get tons of china fittings for cheap, or you can spend a little more, charge a little more, and use usa 316 parts. On the plus side the extractor does what i need it to do, the customer service is pretty good, fast response times and they seem to do what they need to , in order to make the customer happy. With all that being said i feel like there is probably better routes to take, if you have the extra money, buy an expensive unit!

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  14. theartofslab

    Iron fist extractors .com seems to me to be on point. Were they purposely excluded from this list? Thanks gw you rock!!!! Cyphaman

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    1. skunkpharmresearch

      I only spoke on machines I have used and parts I wouldn't want to use because they are unsafe. The majority of the problems I mentioned could be fixed easily and some of the solutions are cheaper. Like removing the quick connect; a valve and JIC/flare fitting is cheaper. Not as cool looking though.

      Reply
      1. ATRAINdabz

        This is ATRAIN the shatte mayne of IE PLZ CONTACT ME @3104977249 I was hired to stop things like this from happening after I purchased a machine and was very upset they spoke with me and decided to hire me to redesign the entire system due to my experience In the field and our new machine and new design address and fix all of these problems the new machines are passive and are based off of a true botanical light hydrocarbon ectraxtor of all 3-a standard 316 SS zero brass and all 316 Ss fittings no hydrolic fittings Thanks gray wolf and Joe for your input plz remove this article and contact me via telephone or email plz

        Reply
  15. 650baquet

    Thanks SPR for posting this, i'm a little late reading it but and honestly didn't read the who article in detail. People do need to become completely aware of the dangers! Someone in Hamilton, MT was just recently sent to the ER with bad burns(not sure how bad or how many) and was slapped with 3 felony charges I believe. I honestly didn't feel safe enough performing Butane extractions until I read this site 1yr ago, I finally felt like I had legit information on the dangers and safety measures. I STILL HEAR ABOUT PEOPLE EXTRACTING BHO INDOORS AND I FEEL TOO MANY PEOPLE WILL BLOW THEMSELVES UP AND ITLL TAKE THAT MUCH LONGER MARIJUANA TO BECOME LEGALIZED HERE. Thanks again SPR for making me aware of the dangers and at the same time giving me the knowledge to be confident.

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  16. Bigfoot Extractors

    We're seeing more and more of this in the NW, which is why I am grateful for your contributions to the industry. Affordable closed loop systems are helping to change things, and your instructions provide the education necessary to safely operate them.

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    1. 650baquet

      can't wait til I can afford a closed system, also so I can reclaim butane to cut down on the cost of production so patients can have cheaper meds.

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  17. bradly

    Wolf you sure have a knack for words. At the classes I was amazed at the amount of safety meetings and no matter what everything you said made perfect sense and all of my questions were answered. You have a bit of comedian in your penmanship too! Exellent post, some dummies are going to ruin this for all of us if we aren't proactive. Thanks, and I'll do my part.

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  18. Mike W

    Of course this was predictable and tragic, not into BHO myself, not into any petroleum product for extraction because, as we all know, the extracted product is never completely free of the solvent used to extract it. The two uses of cannabis is getting high and getting well, cancer is at epidemic proportions and comes mostly from our environment, from being inundated with petrochemicals in our food water and air so why have it in my meds. No thanks. As far as getting high, just twist up a fat one for chrissakes, all you really need is a little something to kick open the doors of perception... Take it from an old fart, this whole thing has been blown way out of shape by infantile idiots, who needs all these genetically spun varieties and their cute little names and all their special fertilizers and other growing aids, all the different potentially dangerous extraction methods, most of which mess up the taste and smell. Back in the day all we had was smuggled in from some other part of the world and the best I ever grew was from those seeds.

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    1. tony espinoza

      Hello Mike,just read your comment and all though I am late in writing I hope you have a chance to read it. You posed the question of who needs all these different strains and concentrates. The quick answer is me. To be a little more in depth I must qualify my response. I am a forty year old man with m.s. and a plethora of permanent damage to parts of my nervous system due to a large Arnold Chiari malformation that went unknown and untreated for thirty years. Before my health took a serious life changing dive I smoked recreationaly and to treat chronic insomnia. Even back then I had an appreciation for variety and the range of effects one could achieve. Since the decline in my health began the doctors that treated me kept prescribing me more and more drugs. One day I looked into some of the processes that were used to create these drugs. What I found kind of horrified me in the sense of cost to the environment in order to produce these drugs,even more so when I lightly calculated how much of some of these drugs are being made. My next thought was how bad can these drugs be for my mind ,body and spirit. I became very interested in medical marijuana. I am currently taking daily onehundredfifty mcg an hour fentanyl, two hundred and forty milligrams oxycontin,six milligrams clonopin,sixty mills lorazepam,one hundred milligram promethazine,ten milligrams macular,fifteen milligrams methimazol,two point five mills androderm testosterone. And I having even touched my m.s. meds. My point is this,these drugs exact an awesome toll on the patient,are very hard to quit,lose effect when used long term and do a lot of damage physically and psychologically as well as create some nasty byproducts. I was extremely excited when I tried my first good concentrate as I tried it for recreation but quickly realised that my nausea which is an all most constant companion was all most completely gone for several hours. This surprised me a great deal as I had tried smoking for releif so many times with results that did not meet my needs. As I did some research I found that different source material would obviously create different effects. As I tried different products I kept records regarding the type of material and process used as well as the effects I experienced. This allowed me too tailor my medicine to my needs and start reducing several medications with the hope that I may be able to stop many of them alltogether. As a result my quality of life is better beyond description as is the life of my wonderfull wife of twenty years. Believe it or not the medication list I wrote had been much more substantial before I found this wonderfull therapy. Even my doctor had to admit off the record of course that this endeavor has helped a great deal and in fact prescribed me marinol pills because insurance companies do not want patients like myself to imbibe marijuana while on so many narcotic medications,this way I could get all the blood tests I need on a regular basis without causing problems. My most trusted doctor admitted to me that had I not started with marijuana medicine she believes I would have had to move to a care facility in the near future. So who needs concentrates? I and those like me need it as it is a miracle plant that keeps life worth living. Sorry for the ramble. Sincerely tony wan kinobi

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      1. Mike W

        Thanks for responding Tony Espinoza, but my point was that I discourage using petroleum products in making concentrates because petroleum products are why many of us are sick. I use organic 190 proof alcohol to make a cannabis oil concentrate that I take every day as a prevention as well as a sleep aid. It seems Cannabis works very well for MS. The lady/ friend who takes it says it gets rid of headache and tremors and helps her sleep like a bear. She just called to say she just got back from her doctor and her tests (MRI?) showed a 50% decrease in lesions (?) what ever that is, and all she takes is a six week infusion made with cannabis in organic sesame oil during her work day and the high power cannabis oil in the evening. Wishing health and good fortune to you Tony, and please be careful and remember we are at the very beginning of something quite new and in my mind quite awesome, but there are fools who unknowing will make errors in judgement and practice, not to mention those who do this for profit. Peace out.. Mike W...

        Reply
  19. ron

    Should start leaving comments on YouTube pointing out the danger of explosion and what the aftermath will be with 2nd and 3rd degree burns. The inside of a butane fireball reaches over 3000 degree F and that is enough to melt steel and the skin off of faces, arms and etc. and its not uncommon to have the house blown off of its foundation and have to be demolished. Over 25 explosions this month alone.

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