Hello All
I have been traveling around the country helping folks get set up in the extraction/formulation industry. I have seen my share of Terpenator knock offs; some better set up than others. Other than some minor changes; most have been ready to go and fairly safe. Some other styles of extractors have also needed modifications to be safe. My latest trip to Colorado inspired me to "call out" some of these manufacturers.
Top on my list of safety violators is.....
1) Isolation Extractors
This company has no regard for the safety of the operator or the quality of the meds being produced. This ass clown put Viton TRI-CLAMP gaskets on the sight glass; between the glass and the flange. The assembler cut the ridge down on one end with a razor blade but didn't bother on the opposite end. That shows that they knew what they were doing was bullshit but continued without a care. The glass was also not stock and was replaced by an improperly annealed (egg shaped) piece.
There are no gauges on the machine whatsoever. The manufacturers excuse was that a Promax RG6000 has gauges on it..... First, let me say that the Promax RG6000 is not rated for Butane. Second, what if I close the valve on the column to soak? I cant see that the pressure is building against the sight glass and.....Boom!
That is also the only valve on the system! How are you supposed to purge the system of atmosphere? There isn't even enough ports to connect a vacuum pump. Maybe they didn't know you had to vacuum the air out.....so it doesn't end up in your cheesy ass tank.
That tank is a 6x36" spool with some flat sheet stainless welded on top. Which is rounding as any engineer would expect. Gas filled tanks have hemispherical ends for a reason. Oh but it has a pressure relief valve right....
Speaking of sheet stainless... the collection pot has it welded to the bottom and its un-polished. Which makes it nearly impossible to clean.
Edit 8/24/14
One thing I forgot to mention was that this machine was sold to my client with single pin butterfly style clamps. We only use high pressure type bolt on clamps for 2" and larger tri clamp fittings.
2) Any company that has quick connects on they're machine. If you have a machine with quick connects; replace them with gas suitable fittings if you value your safety. I don't care what B.S. line they gave you..... they all will leak! ETS and many other companies use these.
3) In house welds are a joke... Go to an ASME certified shop! You may think you can weld but, I don't trust you with my life. Sub Zero, BHOgart are admittedly in this camp, and obviously Isolation Extactors paid someone in an alley to do their welds.
Also sanitary welds are on both INSIDE and OUTSIDE faces.
4) So far only the Haskel pneumatic and the CMEP-OL are the only two oil less recovery pumps rated for R-290/600/600A recovery, so be leary of claims that other pumps are safe. Appion openly admits that their pumps are downright dangerous to use.
Please inspect your equipment and remove any dangerous components! We don't need Closed loopers to start falling in with the BHOtards as a danger to our neighborhoods. We generally have a lot more gas around as well; so the intensity of a closed loop explosion could potentially be much worse. It would only take one to start a campaign against us and throw us in with the open blasters.
If your name is on my list and you're interested in changing your design to be safe feel free to email me. joe@skunkpharmresearch.com
If you think I am not justified in pointing out your design flaws in a public medium you can email me to bitch about it as well.
Pharmer Joe
Closed Loop Extractor Design as seen by Graywolf
Joe’s brought up the subject of closed loop extractor design from his personal field observations, and I thought it might be a propitious time to add my own two cents.
One of the things coming our way, is regulation of equipment, and not all of the equipment currently offered will pass ANSI/ASME scrutiny, nor will packages offered meet UL/NEC or NFPA standards.
Starting with design, I’ve had my original Mk IIIA, as well as WolfWurx Inc’s turnkey Mk IV and V designs reviewed by a third party Registered Professional Mechanical Engineer, and the designs certified to meet ANSI and ASME standards when manufactured according to the prints and operated according to the instructions provided.
The designs that I certified did not contain any tubular sight glasses, because they are not rated at high enough pressure to provide reliable 3X protection under all operating conditions. Instead I used a sight glass using Borosilicate wafers, rated above 700 psi at 250F.
The difference is that glass, including Borosilicate, doesn’t have much strength in tension, but has a lot in compression. In a tubular sight glass design, the fluid pressure inside the glass puts the glass in tension, by trying to stretch the tube to a larger diameter, when it is under pressure.
The wafer design puts two columns of Borosilicate under compression, which is at its strongest, permitting the design to be offered to 3000 psi for hydraulic applications.
While the tubular design is rated at least double the operating pressure, it doesn’t meet ASME 3X requirements and loses strength rapidly, and becomes more shock sensitive with drops in temperature, which is what happens when a refrigerant is boiled under vacuum.
Those designs which have the tubular sight glass captured at the top or bottom of a column between two valves, are a disaster waiting to happen. The reason that you don’t fill a 450 psi tank more than 80% full, is to accommodate thermal expansion. To lock a glass tube in a column of liquid that will be warming and expanding is asking for a ruptured tube. I personally know of two such events, and have read of others.
That instantly vents the content of your system where ever the event is taking place, which may or may not be a handy thing.
Systems utilizing triclamp type sanitary components are limited by the rating of their connections, as it is the weakest point. A 12” high pressure clamp is only rated at 100 psi at 250F, and the 10” is not much higher, so some pressure relief mechanism must be provided to insure that extreme situations have a means to relieve themselves, without rupturing a vessel or deflecting an end cap far enough to lift its edges off the seal.
Some of the manufacturers who do install a pressure relief valve, use an un-calibrated and uncertified cheap brass valve to provide this protection, which pops off and relieves itself right at the device.
Because pressure relief valves are not necessarily bubble tight under vacuum, even if they do seal properly under pressure, WolfWurx Inc, uses a custom built and factory certified combination vacuum check and pressure relief valve, which is protected from the vacuum by the check. The assembly comes wire locked after factory calibration, and with a letter of conformance.
More notably, they don’t relieve at the machine, but are plumbed to either a surge tank under vacuum or to a more suitable location.
Looking at manufacturing, ANSI/ASME Section VIII and IX certification requires that you certify the design and process, and that their components are manufactured to that design, using the specified process, in an ASME certified shop, by an ASME certified welder certified that specific alloy group, using that process.
Not all welders are created equal, which is why certification is required in the first place to weld on pressure vessels, so don’t ass-U-ME that because friend Bob does such an excellent job TIG welding tail pipes and cracked blocks, that he is the man for the job of welding up closed loop extractors.
I’m far from a welding expert, but to put my own point in perspective, in the mid 1970’s, I worked as the manufacturing and weld engineer for an international ASME certified pressure vessel manufacturer and was personally certified to ASME Section IX, welding the 300 series chromium based alloys in question, in GTAW, GMAW, and SMAW processes (TIG, Mig, & Stick).
I have also worked as a Non Destructive Technician inspecting welds in the 1960’s, using visual dimensional, radiographic, fluorescent penetrant, and magnetic particle inspection techniques, so though not an expert, I’m not a novice either.
Here is what I look for when visually inspecting welds.
Most of the manufacturers are using the TIG (Gas Tungsten Arc Weld) process, with argon shielding, but some MIG (Gas Metal Arc Weld) may be used.
Given the size of the welds, a WP-20 sized torch is most often used, with 3/32” Thoriated Tungsten electrode, straight polarity, and 100% argon shielding. Amps and volts vary with arc length and petal position, as well as part position and whether it is welded on a powered weldment manipulator.
With either, the welds should still be bright after cooling and if they are blackened or if they have been heavily wire brushed to remove the oxidation, they are suspect.
A properly made TIG weld should resemble a shiny stack of new silver coins. The size of the individual dabs shows you the deposition rate and their spacing tells you how fast they were moving. Big daubs, with wide spacing indicates high heat input and fast travel.
One of the issues with going too fast and pouring on the heat, is that you out run your argon shielding and the hot weld cools down without adequate shielding, so it oxidizes and becomes more brittle on the surface, where cracks can start and propagate with high cyclic fatigue, or even just time.
Under those circumstances you can use a larger torch cup, a trailing shield, or even a glove box to maintain shielding, or you can simply slow down, and use less power, so that the metal cools below reactive range while still protected by the touch cup shield.
The back side of the weld also gets hot, so it also requires shielding and should also still be shiny after cooling.
Portions of the weldments that the extracted oil passes through, must be full penetration or seal welded both sides to meet sanitary standards. They should be post weld finished to leave a smooth easily cleaned surface, without fissures or traps.
There should be no undercutting or cold laps at the edges of the weld, nor should there be cratering at the end, and no cracks are allowed.
Ugly welds do not necessarily mean defective welds, but it is good indicator of the skill level of the operator, or at least their ability to see.
A professionally manufactured machine shouldn’t have ugly welds, so any that do should at the very least be dye penetrant inspected for cracks and laps. Fluorescent penetrant would be even better, but alas 300 Series stainless isn’t magnetic, so magnetic particle inspection doesn’t work.
Recovery pumps are a subject under heavy scrutiny as only the Haskel has been identified as rated for R-600 and oil less.
A number of other pumps work but aren’t rated for flammable refrigerants like R-600/n-Butane.
The Caresaver Universal is rated for R-600, but is both slow and not oil less, which means the recovered butane passes through the pumps oil filled internals.
There are currently other pumps rated for R-600, but thus far no oil less ones. We are currently testing an oil bath pump, running hemp seed oil as the lubricant and will test the butane after successive runs, to see what it has picked up.
I have been drafted by Concentrate Extractors National Trade Association to aid in compiling cannabis industry design, installation, and operational standards for extraction equipment, and am currently compiling a straw man review in concert with other members. When it is final I will share the results, but wish to issue a clarion cry to enlighten all ya'll extraction equipment manufacturers not yet aware, that things are changing fast.
I encourage ya'll manufacturers to be proactive in raising our level of professionalism to meet the existing national standards governing the various aspects of our operations, cause I'm pretty sure that if we don't take care of our own laundry, government agencies will do it for us.
Lastly, sadly I experienced the unscrupulous and shady side of the cannabis extractor supply chain, at the recent Portland Hempfest. I was drawn to a booth displaying Mk III Terpenators and Appion recovery pumps, and the brothers tending the booth were shouting out, "1000 grams of shatter in one day!"
I elected not to identify myself, but rounded up two witnesses before stopping and asking questions about how it worked and if the Appion was approved for the service.
I asked if it was a Terpenator, and was assured that it was instead an Extraction King, designed by a friend down south that had rather not have his name revealed, and much better than the Terpenator, which wasn't a bottom feed.
I next asked if the Appion was rated for butane, and was assured it was rated for butane, though when I pushed, the attendant acknowledged that Appion issued a letter, "to cover their ass", but was actually ideal for the application and at $1200 wholesale, was far cheaper than the ones with the manufacturers blessings. He never attempted to upgrade me to a more expensive pump and I never mentioned that I've purchased multiple Appion's for under $700 ea.
Obviously the young man talking to me had little knowledge of what he was talking about and the group was there to sell extractors at outrageous prices to naive brother and sisters.
He could offer only rudimentary operational data, so those leaving with one that weekend, left without adequate training in operation or safety.
Clearly there is also no way to produce 1000 grams of shatter a day in a Mk III, so they were lying to the customer up front, so they were not planning on repeat business.
The odds of that customer finding someone to resolve latter issues with, are likely to be close to zero and the odds of them not being able to differentiate those outlaws from the rest of us legitimate manufacturers are low.
Soooo, in summary, those of ya'll manufacturers that plan to hang around for the long haul, should plan on meeting regulation and professional standards, as well as not bullshitting your customers right out of the gate.
Hopefully you all believe your thang is better than the rest of our thangs, or you would be building our thangs, but it would also be a good thing if we could share why we thing our product is superior, without blasting the net with lies and fabrications denigrating the competition.
My first thought anytime I see such a marketing approach, is that the perpetrator must recognize that their product is so inferior, that the only way they can compete is with deceit.
Those of ya'll guilty of that, seemingly are unaware of how it looks to the general public for us to be taking each others inventory in public.
Some are indeed swayed by the beguiling and fanciful stories, but those more educated on the subject are not, and those under attack are most assuredly going to respond by highlighting your own feet of clay.
6-1-15
Add the CMEP-OL to the list of pumps now certified for flammable refrigerant recovery.
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I am Indra who posted the original BHO post in 1999. People are still killing them selves over this and doing it outside is no grantee of being safe. if its not in a powerful fume-hood venting outdoors, your a fool. see how many have burnt because they fooled themselves into think it is safe and easy. worked 3 or 6 times? beware, the more relaxed you become, the closer you edge to danger.
to idiot accusing me of shit, Boffo is a 1920's saying meaning cool uniilke you. get it fool?
usually don't do board talk, but as the patent owner and writer of the butane extraction system currently registered worldwide in 70 countries, I would like to say all these toy systems are inherently dangerous to use. It is a fickle gas and the methods I see here and other places scare me. I would be present at any extraction made by any posters here from what I read you all take your lives in your hands. Not one of the systems I looked at so far have met any safety standard. its all imagined by folks who want but do not know how. the road to understanding hydrocarbon extraction is covered in broken glass guys. there will be many more explosions and fires to come yet using these extractors and methods. I have a factory that can extract 2750 kilos at a time and it took years to build from the ground up to be safe, it seems safety goes by the way side here. the methods are yesteryear and unsafe. The list of whats wrong is too long to post as no one will pay attention anyway, sorry to say but its true, look how many fires and explosions there are daily. I have been doing it for 25 years and never a problem, but it is because its all done safely. you have to treat it like cobra venom. we even had a factory burn down all around us in switzerland and a textile factory with a super hot fire. none of our stuff ever even got in a danger zone, because we understand how insidious this gas is. it burns hotter than hydrogen.the extraction chamber is in a room that is flooded with nitrogen during extractions.all is controlled from outside the room. that is minimum safety requirements. fire cannot propagate in nitrogen atmosphere so it is safe. you guys risk your lives for nonsense amounts of return. I hope you read this and wake up to the danger you are courting.none of you are experts or otherwise the patent would be in your names not mine. think again before doing this.
Where is the Blog about how Austin Noack killed himself using your design? Austin N. Owner and Operator of Terp extractors of Col Springs passed away due to a complication from using your design that he sells to the public and dispensaries. You are always quick to Point out Flaws and Safety on other companies units but obviously if the CEO of a CLS company that came to Oregon and Learned from you and GW to further his Education on Safety, Using your Blueprints, New and Old killed himself, i feel you need to focus on a few things...... Mind educating us all what happened since Terp of Col as keeping this a Secret? Its been months i guess since Austin Passed, and i just heard about it. You would think after a DEATH in your family you would express safety more and not try and destroy competitive companies reputations as i see it....... You still have a lot to work on with sight glasses popping constantly and now certain death from your machine i always found it hard to listen to your BS opinions on what you think is best. I.E. owners before dabbling into this, worked on high pressure Oil rigs, and were in control of the Safety of his crew, taking classes on high pressure safety. Other Co owners worked in a Coal Fired Power plant, and his christmas were filled with Bibby Overalls and Union pride, Pipe fitters, welders, boulder makers, and welding inspectors. Austins last job was @ a Electronics store........ Do they make you become Osha Certified at best buy? But their sure do tell you how to Market a product and Sell it. Check out Austins page, which i can say honestly SPR likes to lie and Fib like a little high school cheerleader and hate on everyone that is moving fwd. Heres the proof...... https://www.facebook.com/dr.austin?fref=ts New machines will be coming out and We were going to Other DIY Terps at cost, but now since the owner as passed we have decided to stay away from that design for it has many flaws. -Chris with Isolation Extractors
Austin's death had nothing to do with our machines or this industry. It's not our place to talk about how he died. Your distasteful comments about the death of our friend and colleague; speaks volumes about your character. Joe
Clearly you have an agenda, so how you see "it", holds little water on this site, which sticks to the actual facts. If you want more respect, stick to the facts yourself. Until then, your adolescent innuendos only demonstrate to the readers your sociopathic mentality. A mentality that will say anything to try and make a point, even if it isn't true and innocent bystander like Austins family are hurt. In truth, the Terpenator design is certified by a 3rd party registered professional engineer to meet ASME, and clearly you are not an ME PE, or you wouldn't continue to talk like the village idiot. I don't have to infer your extractor isn't certified and can't be, for two reasons. The first is that nothing I've said should be an issue for you unless you are selling unsafe equipment. The second is that I just pulled up your site to see what you are offering, and so know there is no way you will be certifying it. If that is not so, now is the perfect time to put up or shut up, and show me to be a liar. All it takes is actual facts vis a vis social media BS. Austin's death had nothing remotely to do with Terpenator, and though a student and personal friend to us all, there is no business relationship between SPR and Terpp Extractors. A cherished friend, of whom I was supportive, because I experienced him as pure of heart, but not in business with. How nice in the absence of information, to be conveniently able to pull enough data out of your dank dark nether regions to make a frontal assault on this site, with nothing of substance. It speaks loads for your character and credibility, as well as how far you will go regardless of the collateral damage. I rest my case on the sociopath observation! Since I am in contact with Austin's father, and other members of the Terpp family, it is also clear your perspective is diametrically opposite theirs. In the vernacular, you are totally full of "it." You can choose to try and arrogate for the dead, without being contradicted due to their lack of voice, but not for the living with impunity. While you continue to peck pitifully at tearing down my reputation via social media, I steadily meet the requirements of the regulated market with my designs, leaving no room for wiggle room when you try to prove that you shouldn't have to. While you moan and snivel that worker safety rules are unreasonable, I help educate NIOSH Industrial Hygienst whom are developing the work place safety rules OSHA will be enforcing, so that they are reasonable. How arogant to try and paint a uniquely interpreted picture of someone my age! Are you so intellectually challenged as to not recognize that my corporate and public history is a matter of record. Lawrd knows I would change some of it, if I could, but alas it is engraved in the stone of history, so may I ask how you plan to do so? Do you feel so entitled that you think you get to pick and choose what safety issues you address once you have an employee. Alas if that is so, you are going to be sorely disapponted, because existing laws are clear that they have the right to expect to return home to their family safely and you have to provide working conditions that exhaust all engineering avenues in attempts to make it so. Your financial ledger or business plan is of no consequence. So what is it going to be Chris with Isolation Extractors? Are you going to continue to snivel and whine on social media, wetting your pants and grasping for straws, or are you going to belly up the bar and address what takes be in business once the smoke and bullshit artists are gone? GW
Chris, your gear is some cheesy ass shit and it's obvious. This is some pathetic shit.
I rest my case Chris! Thank you for continuing to make my point of who and what you are! GW
im a certified welder and I design and build systems under the 710 tech brand. I agree with everything you have mentioned. I had the luxury of meeting carol at this past Denver cup. we had so many agreements on the industry and the equipment. even people you skunk pharm has had photos with. ive designed 2 major units for so called major name sand the moment they where certified Colorado rating they stole my design kicked me to the curb and subbed the job to importers. I urge you all to take a look at passive systems and units that are actually built by the gentlemen selling them to you. all of our units meet and exceed asme, ansi, and aws standards. please feel free to look us up on instagram 710techclosedloop. thank you for all that you do greywolf and also ask if you could give testimony in a Colorado courtroom. either way thank you for the years of free information and correct information. forever your humble supporter sota pop
Would like to hear your thoughts on SubZero these days. AFAIK (when i last spoke with one of their reps) all of their rigs come with asme cert, they've switched away from the flat bottom storage tank (& added crush sleeves.) They've also moved away from appion and will still sell a cps, but recommend the haskell.
Subzero is a local company, but I haven't checked out their latest and greatest, so I will take advantage of one of their open houses and do so, before having an opinion or comment. I do know they offer the TRS-21, as that is where partner Joe got his two and who he is dealing with on warranty issues, which they've honorably stood behind. I also know that they offer the Haskel, whom they get from the same distributor that we get ours from.
[…] The only problem is greedy ignorant BHOtards blowing themselves up, http://skunkpharmresearch.com/booming-bhotards-the-explosion-of-explosions/ […]
When you talk about hi pressure clamps what do you mean by that? Hi preassure? In the worse case scenario heating up the system with water at 150 f. The pressure on the tank goes up to 250psi. So why do we need hi preassure clamps when we are not dealing with them? You sayd , "I don't know what anyone says" what's the prove that you have to make that statement? I like your page , by the way Enrique Nates
Sanitary systems pressure ratings are based on their closures, hot the spools themselves. In is easier to get a consistent good seal with a bolted high pressure clamp, vis a vis a hinged toggle bolt, and by the time you get into the 10 and 12" clamps, even the high pressure clamps are only rated at 150 psi at 70F and 100 psi at 250F.
The system has a release valve at 150psi, so what's the problem?
Release valves are not 100% reliable, so ASME requires it, but doesn't rely on them. ASME also requires a vessel to withstand three times the load, and 10/12" sanitary spool systems don't. At about 100 psi, a 12" lid starts to deflect and lift off the seals.
Sorry i can't find what i'm talking about.. 1/2 X 260 PTFE Pipe Thread Tape
Greywolf, I can't decide if I admire you, pity you, or wanna slap you. I JUST came back from Co. Yes. It's like a buncha moonshiners who jello'd the cannabis gene pool I once knew and loved. (Do you realize you are asking teacher for homework tho?) Once big industry buys in, it's all but over, and this becomes moot/too costly for all but them to care about as (wildly hypothetical idea) 150 square foot closed loop systems crank out ten pounds shatter for 2.00 dose and it's in every liquor store for less maybe in 10:years. Admire competent people in general tho. Nice read.
Grey wolf, what do you know about the CM EP recovery pump. it seems to be a new explosion proof recovery pump. have you seen one or have any opinion
Currently testing one running on hemp seed oil as the lubricant. Faster than the Appion and quieter, but not oil less, so the unanswered question is how much hemp seed oil are we carrying over to the recovered butane, which I will resolve after further trials, by sending in samples to a third party lab for testing.
Thanks GW, is there any chance you can make a short video of the cm ep operating using a smart phone? And even using a decibile reading program( i know apple has lots of free one's , im sure android does too. Thinking about getting one but would love to see and hear it ifpossible. Thanks so much for all your hard work and research!!, you are greatly apprecateed!!,
Much better news is that the CMEO-OL is now available and does meet our process certifications and requirements. A little early to rejoice, as it is lacking time in the field, but has so far stood up to commercial use in the field.
Is the CMEP-OL still holding up? I've been hearing about recent failures. Thanks for the info. Great thread.
Yeah, and we just moved it to another facility to continue to put hours on it. GW
I read your blog thank,s !... Filler Valve Anti Siphon
I see you found it uplifting!
Thanks for the addendum GW. Are any of these issues less relevant for us Lil' passive extracter types? Should the tubular sight-glass still be avoided? I'm embarrassed I don't know the pressures involved in passive setups, should we also add gauges for safety?
Pressures in a passive system should range between about a -10" Hg using alcohol and dry ice, or up to about 45 psi using 110F water and an ice bath. To meet ASME, it would have to meet 135 psi. I would not use a tubular sight glass where it will be full of liquid and locked between two valves, or where subzero temperatures are going to be involved.
Hello! I wanted to leave a post here similar to the nature of yours, It seems a lot of companies are selling "Consumer ready" butane extractors (first off I don't think that should even be a thing) but secondly, virtually none of them are safe to use, or produce a healthy extraction. So, what is a "safe extractor", again, ill restate, these probably shouldn't be sold as consumer level devices but heck, lets define that. Im studying engineering, and According to standard practice, if i want to make something with a potentially large hazard, and i want to make it so a consumer can use it, then, i should figure out every operating parameter of the device, and design it to withstand double that at least, at every possible point. That is common knowledge among engineers and is a basic practice incorporated into so many aspects of every thing we touch use and build its insanity. So use this definition of "Safe" I will compose my list of concerns. DO not buy a dry ice column extractor, the dry ice cools the triclamps to -100f (theoretically) most companies selling these state they get down to -70f which is still well below the rated limit for VITON BUNA N and PTFE seals. Many companies advise using alcohol to wash your containment chamber to get all of your extract, this is possible with welded bottom lids, and VITON and PTFE (although PTFE in the size youll need probably wont hold a "safe" pressure), BUNA which most companies are selling as its the cheaper elastomer seal, which will dissolve in alcohol. There are multiple NPT ball valves available, and many styles are used in varying machines, THEY MUSH BE SANITARY, if this isn't stated then they have seals that can be dissolved, leaded materials, or are greased. Some companies use an "Economy triclamp ball valve" this ball valve is NOT sanitary and will leak butane, ive talked with the supplier of these and he specifically says you need to use an encapsulated PTFE valve (its the only readily available triclamp valve thats up to the task). Many companies will use a main dump valve that is not a ball valve, EI its a butterfly, or a diaphragm, Both of these valves use either EPDM seals (which dissolve) or silicone seals (which cannot handle cold temperatures, it becomes brittle and will flake into your extract, too many uses will destroy the seals integrity and it will fail). If any more come to mind ill post a reply but i figured this bit of knowledge would be worth sharing, I hope someone finds this useful. Cheers. PS virtually no commercially available units come with safety features such as, check valves, pressure reliefs, or gauges (and i mean a gauge on your column, tank and collection base)
All valid points! Check out WolfWurx, Inc for how they address those concerns on their commercial units.
This is a great method, but you'd have to avoid destructive temperatures and use a very non polar solvents. I also would be very concerned about temperature control and the safety of the equipement when using solvent that is flashable, (even in sealed containers). I probably wouldn't try such a device, but love the concept.
Does this product work http://www.milestonesci.com/products/microwave-extraction.html and why or why not? Thank you guys so much for your knowledge and compassion.
Its been around for awhile without catching on, so I'm guessing not well enough, but have no personal experience with one. GW
I have heard they have sealed pistons. That does not change the fact that this pump is not designed for our purposes. #unsafe
Could you elaborate on what pump has sealed pistons and is unsafe?
Tr21 on CPS website is not rated for r600….. Explain?
WHOEVER WRORE THIS ARTICAL NEEDS TO EXPLAIN THIS.
*WROTE
please?
No explaination necessary. They aren't rated for R-600, nor do we promote them as such. We promoted only the Haskel at the time I wrote this, but the CMEP-OL specificially built for our industry has tested well thus far, so that may change.
According to the TR-21 user manual "DANGER EXPLOSION RISK-Do not recover flammable refrigerants" http://www.cpsproducts.com/pdf/TR21_Man.pdf
WHOEVER WROTE THIS ARTICLE NEEDS TO EXPLAIN THIS ALREADY.
And your point is?
Hey good post. Also thanks to Catalyst for the info on the pump.(you didn't have to yell though). I'm currently working (hard) to build a commercial, co2 extractor, which is outside this forum, but.... I wanted to give my 2 cents worth on your post. Bryan S. you did the right things, talking to the engineers and getting recommendations. You still ended up with a crap machine full of problems. A real shame and a reflection on the industry. (Hope there were some guarantees with the sale). The BHO industry (and CO2 industry) is very new and ripe with egotistical engineers designing and selling bad machines, as well as scam artists. (I know why you put the engineers in quotes). It has spread to the supply industry, even in China, which manufacturers 95% of your sanitary spools and tubes, fittings, pumps, etc.They also manufacture a lot of the CO2 extractors, especially building sized. Do your research and know exactly what is required, in your setup. Make the manufacturer prove or support their claims even down to the materials offered. Not all sellers are honest. (Especially if you find them on Alibaba.com or madeinchina.com or..... what a bunch thieves mixed with honest manufacturers). I always check references. Do your research, bad construction, bad method, wrong materials and the wrong ancillary equipement can have grave repercussions. (Very pretty explosions or like extracts full of heavy metal because you used the wrong refrigerant pump.) I want this industry to flourish (BHO and CO2 and solvent extractions, etc.). It's up to us, the manufacturers to clean it up! We must also prove our products. No one else will. These extractions are used as medicine and we must be up to pharmaceutical standards. We owe it to our clients and the medical patients trying to cure their ailments. Let's keep up the communications and keep educating ourselves. Cheers Robert e
My first hands on experience with any closed loop extractor was an Isolation Extractor 1lb unit. I met the "engineers" behind the scheme a friend of a friend contacted me asking for help showing him the process of making honeycomb with his new CLS. I saw the machine and asked where all the parts were. He replied "oh the guys who made it cut it down to only the needed parts. Over the next week the amount of part failures was to many to count on one hand. First the quick fittings failed on the butane canister. Then the quick fittings failed on the collection pot. Shortly after replacing all quick fittings with threaded fittings the valves they had supplied us with failed too (cheap little plastic chinese valves) Had to replace those with SS ball valves. Once we finally got every gasket and valve on the machine replaced and quick connect fitting changed to screw fitting we were inspecting the machine to finally run it and noted the sight glass had a crack in it. We had to replace this as well. Finally got to run the machine with my friend after refitting EVERY FACET of it.............. He was showing me the "operating instructions" as shared with him... when he got to the part of "burping the collection pot to allow more butane flow" I had to stop him these machines are going to end closed loop extraction in the state of colorado for sure. I am glad they now require safety testing of some sort and wish I had experience with a real closed loop machine.
USE A WELCH CHEMICAL DUTY FAST DRY PUMP PEOPLE!!!!!!!! MADE IN THE USA. ALL WETTED PARTS ARE MADE TO HANDLE HARSH SOLVENTS. PUMPS ARE ACTUALLY MADE TO BE USED FOR SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS. HOW STUPID ARE YOU TO USE A HVAC PUMP FOR A CHEMICAL/FOOD GRADE APPLICATION? AND PEOPLE ARE ON HERE TALKING ABOUT SAFETY, LOL YOU CRACK ME UP. HOW DO THOSE CHINESE MADE SEALS AND PLASTIC PARTS TASTE IN YOUR CONTAMINATED BHO FROM YOUR GARBAGE PUMP? PROBABLY CAN'T TASTE IT BUT ARE PROBABLY GETTING CANCER AS I TYPE. PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES.....GEEZ. I WORK FOR AN INDUSTRIAL RUBBER DISTRIBUTOR AND DEAL WITH PUMPS AND DIFFERENT RUBBERS/POLYMERS ALL DAY EVERY DAY. FOOD GRADE APPLICATIONS AND FABRICATIONS AS WELL. I HAVE A CUSTOM EXTRACTOR I BUILT THAT IS ALL FOOD GRADE AND 100% EXCELLENT RATING FOR ALL SOLVENTS USED. WHY IN THE HELL WOULD I WANT TO RUIN ALL THAT WITH A HVAC PUMP? I ALSO AM A DISTRIBUTOR FOR DIXON VALVE AND QUICK COUPLING. ONE OF OUR MANY VENDORS. AMERICAN MADE AGAIN. THE QUICK DISCONNECTS I USE ARE FROM THEM AND ARE 316 SS AND HANDLE 10,000 PSI. THEY ARE QUALITY. THEY DO NOT LEAK. YOU BUY SHEET YOU GET SHEET, TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT. PARKER IS AS WELL BUT I WOULDN'T BUY THEIR IMPORT/CHINESE STUFF FOR THIS APPLICATION. BALL VALVES IN ANY SYSTEM ARE GARBAGE. DUE TO THE DESIGN WHEN YOU CLOSE THEM YOU GET A SMALL AMOUNT OF RESIDUAL LEFT IN THE VALVE. USE PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE NEEDLE VALVES. HANDLE EITHER 10,000 OR 6,000 PSI. ARE 316 SS AS WELL. MUCH BETTER CONTROL OVER YOUR SYSTEM AS WELL WHEN BLASTING, SOAKING, POWER WASHING, IN LINE DEWAXING /WINTERIZING, AND/OR RECOVERING. OH YEA MY SYSTEM DOES ALL THOSE FUNCTIONS AS WELL. WAY BETTER THAN ANYTHING I HAVE YET TO LAY EYES ON. ALSO DEIGNED TO EASILY DO ANYWHERE BETWEEN 1/2 OZ TO 50 LBS PER RUN. YES YOU HAVE TO CHANGE OUT A FEW PARTS OBVIOUSLY BUT ONLY THE COLLECTION AND BLAST CHAMBERS. MY SIGHT GLASS HAS 1/4" GLASS AND WAS HYDO TESTED FOR HALF AN HOUR AT 150 PSI. I USE NEEDLE VALVES ALL OVER MY SYSTEM. PRETTY MUCH AT EVERY MAIN POINT AND ON EVERY TANK. I COULD EASILY REMOVE IF I WANTED AND NOT LOOSE A THING AS FAR AS FUNCTIONALITY. ALWAYS BEEN LESS WORRIED ABOUT IT COLLAPSING IN INSTEAD OF BLOWING OUT ANYWAY. ALL WELDS WERE DONE BY A CUSTOM SS FAB SHOP AND POLISHED BACK TO FOOD GRADE LEVELS. MY COST AND I GET STUFF CHEAP AS A DISTRIBUTOR WITH PUMP......... JUST OVER $6K. OK ONE LAST THING AND ILL CHILL. IF YOU USE PTFE OR ANY THREAD TAPE, PLEASE STOP. YES THE TAPE ITSELF IS PTFE AKA TEFLON AND HANDLES BUTANE FINE. BUT GUESS WHAT PTFE IS NOT STICKY. THE ADHESIVE USED ON THAT PTFE TAPE IS GUESS WHAT. WAIT FOR IT............SILICONE. GARBAGE. YOU WILL PROBABLY GET LEAKS EVENTUALLY IF YOU ARE USING THIS. THE ONLY OTHER PTFE TAPE I AM AWARE OF THAT DOES NOT USE SILICONE AS AN ADHESIVE USES ACRYLIC. NOT THE SAME ACRYLIC YOU ARE PROBABLY THINKING OF EITHER. LIKE WHAT LIGHTERS ARE MADE OF. NOT THAT. ALSO I CALLED SEVERAL MANUFACTURES AND IT DOES NOT HAVE A RATING FOR BUTANE. THIS IS BECAUSE NO ON HAS EVER TESTED IT. SO IT MIGHT BE OK. I USE A NON-PTFE FOOD GRADE BUTANE AND SOLVENT SAFE PIPE PASTE. IT'S BLUE. CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE COMPANY OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. GOD BLESS HAPPY BLASTING THE HOLY GRAIL BY CATALYST
I wasn't aware of PTFE tape with adhesive. Mine is actually quite slippery.
Key points presented as I see it are: 1.0 Refrigerant recovery machines are poisoning the cannabis industry. 1.1 Refrigerant Recovery Machines are Poisoning the Cannabis Industry Click here to read the article at it's source 1.2 Refrigerant recovery devices are in no way “food-safe” and do not utilize commonly accepted practices for devices utilized to make products for human consumption 1.3 The butane/cannabis oil mix stays combined until it makes contact with the piston and the butane flashes off, leaving the oil behind. As this piston moves rapidly back and forth it gets coated in a very sticky THC oil that further heats up, solidifies and works to deteriorate the piston gasket to form a bluish black colored sludge. When non-contaminated butane runs past this sludge it re-dissolves this gasket/cannabis oil mixture and passes it into the recovery tank, or back into the oil. When users of refrigerant recovery devices have to replace the piston seals, which is a common occurrence, it is due to oil contaminating and destroying the piston seals, or from operation without lubrication. This “gasket oil”, which has found its way into the BHO extraction, is then being ingested by the end user who receives the oil at a cannabis dispensary. While some extraction machine manufacturers have taken steps to create a system where the butane/propane only contacts food safe materials such as stainless steel, they seem to have overlooked the fact that the internal tubing of the refrigerant recovery machines are made from copper, brass and aluminum. Copper, when exposed to oxygen and moisture, creates copper oxide and copper carbonate, these are a black and green corrosions of copper which when smoked leads to a condition called Metal Fume Fever, symptoms of which include fever, chills, nausea, headache, fatigue, muscle aches, shortness of breath, chest pain, shock, collapse and or convulsions. When copper, brass and aluminum and are exposed to water, oxygen and acidic environments they produce sulfides and oxides which are being washed down into the extracted oils, and then smoked by consumers. 1.4 The second problem is that when you have a fast moving piston coupled with the lack of lubrication, the result is a high amount of friction heat. We spoke directly to a manufacturer of a refrigerant recovery device on this topic and the results were shocking to say the least. We were told that they regularly receive failed units back from customers that have clearly been using for the cannabis extractions. Upon receiving the units they were disassembled and it was determined that the reason many of these unit are failing is that due to the lack of lubrication, the pistons are overheating, swelling, grinding, and/or disintegrating, causing them to seize up. These pistons were made from a combination of lead and aluminum and covered with plasma coated chromium. We were told the only place these disintegrated piston particulates have to go is through the lines, into the extraction. The effects of smoking chromium are too numerous to mention, much less the inhalation of lead or aluminum fumes. To make things worse these companies can develop the technology to fix this issue, but the engineer we spoke to was told by higher ups in the company to cease and desist any effort to make this process safe until the laws regarding marijuana change in the state these machines are built in. 1.5 Where are the butane soluble “evil spirits” coming from? 1.5.1 If there were this composite PTFE/lead/chromium sludge created, how would it be washed off and transported? Butane is a fully saturated simple Alkane, into which none of the PTFE composite piston sleeve components are soluble. Nor any metal, nor metal oxide, sulfate, or carbonate (?). It has a dielectric constant of around 1.4. One reason they use PTFE, is that it isn’t soluble in most organic solvents. It is left smeared on the cylinder wall and piston specifically because it is insoluble. 1.5.2 A piston requires a high strength, temperable alloy, so why would they pay the premium for one of the limited number of aluminum alloys utilizing .5% pB for machinability, when they don’t meet those high strength requirements. The piston has all the appearances of being hard anodized, not plasma sprayed. Why would they plasma spray chromium and finish it, when aluminum oxide hard anodizing is less expensive and almost as hard as diamonds, and atomically bonded, besides not requiring subsequent finishing. Hard enough that aluminum oxide grinding wheels are typically used to grind chromium. The piston is protected from cylinder contact by the piston sleeve, which seriously leaks long before there is enough wear for piston to cylinder wall contact. Piston’s shatter, not from simple overheating, but in most cases from ingesting a slug of liquid and instantly stopping the piston going full speed, in a hydraulic lock. Slugs and sips of liquids are a fuck up, and means the process is not being followed, or the liquid would not reach the pump inlet. There is no “special little groove” for the lubricant, there is a groove for the sleeve, which will trap some lubricant at its edges, but the sleeve is lubricated by the butane on the cylinder wall. Not the slight bit it can carry in a tight seam that is being pressed tighter by its direction of travel against frictional resistance. When it isn’t there, the sliding friction increases and when under vacuum, there is no moving gas stream to carry away the heat. PTFE has an upper operating temperature of about 260C/500F, which it will eventually reach and the material will flow and lose its mechanical properties. Under the sleeve is an o-ring to provide compression at that point, but when baked at high heat for long periods, they lose their resilience. There is no catastrophic failure, it just wears and deforms enough to no longer seal and it will no longer reach the vacuum levels it once would and takes forever to recover. Hard to miss that something isn’t right as time wears on. 1.53 Ingesting oil, does leave the oil behind, which glazes over on the wall and sticks the piston sleeve to the piston, compromising the seal, making them unusable until the glaze is removed and the seal replaced. 2.0 Purveyors of recycle equipment are so profit motivated as to recommend unsafe equipment to the gullible public. 2.1 In order to make a profit, the manufacturers of these extraction devices are selling and recommending these extremely dangerous refrigerant recovery machines to their customers and telling them that they are safe to operate. The simple fact is they are not. 2.2 Too vague. Who? The article makes it sound like common practice and SOP for most. I regularly converse with extractor makers looking for a solution to an affordable recovery pump at ma and pa prices, which is rated for flammable recovery. That is no deep dark secret and if a vendor is representing them as certified for the purpose to customers, we should know specifically who, rather than painting all the potential competitors of the author with the same brush. 2.3 What I mostly see, is folks buying the oil less recovery units after being told that they are not explosion proof, simply because they know they work and can’t afford the alternatives that are explosion proof. They also consider the risk low enough to make those decisions. 2.4 Given that they aren’t explosion proof, we might why there haven’t been a flurry of recycle system explosions and the answer lies with the magnitude of the risk. Butane has a combustible range of 1.6% to 8.4% and requires an ignition source. Unless catastrophic, leaks by piston seals never vent butane at a high enough rate to reach 1.6% of the atmosphere, especially with their fans dispersing the leaked gas. Most folks are also using them outdoors or in a properly ventilated enclosure as recommended by reputable manufacturers. Nothing is ever so fool proof as to ignore the possibility of something going wrong and to prepare for the worst case scenario. 3.0 Manufacturers of recovery companies are so profit motivated as to stand back and do nothing, while reaping the rewards. 3.1 We looked into why the refrigerant recovery manufactures have turned a blind eye, allowing their machines to be sold to companies and individuals that they know are going to utilize them in dangerous solvent based cannabis extractions. We have spoken with representatives from refrigerant recovery pump manufactures including Appion and Diablo with both companies stating that they know that these units are going to the cannabis extraction industry, but that they are unable or unwilling to speak of it on record or address it out of fear of the potential liabilities. 3.2 My experience has been just the opposite, and that companies like Appion have made it more than clear that they don’t want our business. Their published statements appear to fly in the face of the above argument. 3.2.1 In response to the dangerous practice of incorporating these recovery machines into extraction devices, Appion, the makers of the Appion G5, widely utilized in the cannabis extraction industry, has released an Urgent Industry Safety Alert titled “Hydrocarbon Explosion Hazards with Refrigerant Recovery Machines.” 4.0 Anyone who disagrees with or tries to refute their post has ulterior and nefarious motives. 4.1 We believe that the only voices that will argue against what we have presented here will be the ones who have the most to gain and profiteer from continuing to process and sell possibly contaminated oils using unsafe methods, with the potential liability of property damage or the physical harm of their friends, home or workplace. 4.2 Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! “You can trust only us, cause we have no ulterior motives and we won’t ejaculate in your mouth like those other rascals will!” 5.0 Even in states where regulation exists, it doesn’t cover his concerns 5.1 Normally, device manufacturers would be regulated by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) or the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), or at a minimum one of the agencies that regulate this type of activity on a state by state level. While there is some amount of regulation of these devices in Colorado and Washington, there is a complete lack in all other medical states. Further, we do not believe the regulations that do exist properly address the issues we have raised in this document. 5.2 Hopefully, with the strict requirements now placed on extraction machines in Colorado and Washington, fire marshals and regulatory agencies will in no way authorize a unit that was designed to operate with a flammable refrigerant recovery machine. 5.3 While there is some amount of regulation of these devices in Colorado and Washington, there is a complete lack in all other medical states. Further, we do not believe the regulations that do exist properly address the issues we have raised in this document. J 5.4 Cutting to the chase, the extraction industry is rapidly growing and does need standards, but for all extraction devices, not just those using refrigerant recovery machines. It is also not blind to the legitimate issues raised, or naïve enough to embrace fanciful myth. CENTA was founded by a CA law firm and industry leaders to write those standards before they are legislated to us and actively doing so. I was recruited as a member and am directly supporting their efforts in those areas which I have insight, such as concentrate extraction. There will be zero edge given for the purpose of promoting one process or manufacturer over the other, such as the post in question rampantly does. There also is no question that all devices used in licensed commercial extraction facilities, will be required to meet ANSI/ASME Pharma/NEC/NFPA standards, which addresses any pumps not meeting NEMA 7, or food standards. Leaders in the analytical lab industry also volunteering at CENTA are also writing inspection standards, about what testing is required, who can perform it, and how it is to be performed. It is fair to say that currently we need better standardization of cannabis labs, so that the same sample gets the same results within reasonable tolerance, regardless of how many times you split off samples to other labs and all check for the same things It is not fair to say that it is not so far out of control that even in those places where the folks are addressing the issues, that they lack the deep insight of posts author as they state. 6.0 The equipment doesn’t meet NEMA 7, Div II NEC requirements. 6.1 The only small oil less refrigerant pumps certified to NEMA 7 that I’m aware of, is the Haskel. 6.2 It presents none of the issues brought up, and is certified for its use recovering butane, so the full court attack on that whole segment of the full powered hydrocarbon extraction industry is moot. 6.3 As WolfWurx supplies only the Haskel with our turnkey systems, I have no personal dog in this fight, but I do feel the need to voice my opinion on the matters in question. 7.0 The equipment does not maintain a bubble tight seal and loses great amounts of butane and creates an explosive atmosphere: 7.1 The first warning is that the unit should be only operated in well ventilated areas. The very simple reason for this is because the refrigerant recovery pump leaks during normal operation. Normally the concern would be that it leaks refrigerant vapors into an enclosed area. Under use in a BHO extraction in leaks highly flammable butane or propane. This is apparent from the second warning. There is a listed refrigerant loss of less than 3% listed on the side of the recovery machines. That does not mean zero percent, but rather just somewhere less than three percent. This negates the whole purpose of a “closed-loop” extraction system where the industry should be striving to recover all of the hydrocarbon liquids and gasses being used. In addition, we found that when sitting idle, these refrigerant recovery units will continue to leak the entire flammable contents of the extraction machine, usually a GALLON or MORE of liquid butane or propane, overnight into the structures they are operating in. With butane having an approximate expansion rate of 270 to 1, that gallon of liquid butane now becomes 270 gallons of gaseous butane, which mixed with oxygen is more than enough to entirely demolish a structure. 7.2 I have no doubt that a blown piston seal will leak a gallon or more overnight into a structure if left sitting, but that does beg several questions. 7.2.1 Why was a machine with a badly blown seal being used? 7.2.2 Why was the tank valve not closed while sitting over night? 7.2.3 What is the machine doing in a structure that is not specifically designed and ventilated for extraction? 7.2.4 Does that mean the solution they are proposing is “Certified” for indoor use? 7.2.5 If we are discussing lack of maintenance, what happens when the seals on their passive system deteriorate or loosen and start to leak? 8.0 They will be selling the soon to be patented solution. 8.1 Udoxi Scientific in Portland, Oregon likewise have developed equipment and methods that do not require the use of recovery pumps and are able to produce extractions on a large scale. We at Xtractix Corporation have partnered with http://www.facebook.com/connoisseur.concentrates to develop pump-less technology and currently have technology that allows for a contaminant free extraction that does not need the use of refrigerant recovery pumps, copper, brass or electrical assistance of any kind. These machines will be available over the coming weeks once we have finished and filed our patent. 8.2 How will they patent a passive recovery solution already filed for by Tamisium in 2010 and which I also posted on line as Lil Terp, and FOAF predated us both with posts, by several years? 8.3 How will they meet ANSI/ASME with the tubular Borosilicate tank/sight glass? 8.4 How do they remove Mystery Oil with their system? 8.5 I am immediately suspicious and repelled by any sales pitch that starts out demonizing their competitors, all the pump manufacturers, and anyone who disagrees with him. 8.6 Such a sales approach appears to presume that the product is so inferior that it can’t be sold on its own merits, so the competitive products must be denigrated. 8.7 Magicians call that misdirection. Peace, Graywolf
Thank you.
Just so you know, Xtractix's new models of passive extracting machines will come with optional ports w/flare fittings so you can run a refrigerant pump with them! Ha, ha, ha. what a joke. they dress like mod's too -or vampires.
USE A WELCH CHEMICAL DUTY FAST DRY PUMP PEOPLE!!!!!!! Which Welch pump would you recommend for Bhogart systems?
was wondering about more details on these welch chemical duty pumps. are these to be used instead of the regular vacuum pump or in place of the refrigerant pump? looking for some advice as I just purchased a 1lb bhogart system and do not have a refrigerant pump yet as I was not comfortable using the appion. want to know exactly what model would best suit my system. Also was wondering if anyone out there knows exactly what changes I would have to make o the bhogart system before it is SAFE to operate. thanks in advance for any advice, and I love the way you guys spread the knowledge. mad respect.
We like the 2054 for our ovens, an AC vacuum pump for initial evacuation, and a Haskel recovery pump on our extractors. Here is information on the Welch pump. http://welchvacuum.com/collections/laboratory-vacuum-pumps-oil-free-pumps/products/part-2054b-01 . I would have to see a picture of your BHOgart to have any thoughts on its safety. We are testing a CM EP OL certified for R-600/600A, which so far has met our requirements and continues to put in it's hours in a production lab without incident. I will be posting a thread on that shortly.
USE A WELCH CHEMICAL DUTY FAST DRY PUMP PEOPLE!!!!!!!! MADE IN THE USA. ALL WETTED PARTS ARE MADE TO HANDLE HARSH SOLVENTS. PUMPS ARE ACTUALLY MADE TO BE USED FOR SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS. We actually do use the Welch Chemical duty pumps in applications where they work. In this case they don’t. HOW STUPID ARE YOU TO USE A HVAC PUMP FOR A CHEMICAL/FOOD GRADE APPLICATION? AND PEOPLE ARE ON HERE TALKING ABOUT SAFETY, LOL YOU CRACK ME UP. How is the Haskel contaminating the solvent it reclaims and how is it unsafe? HOW DO THOSE CHINESE MADE SEALS AND PLASTIC PARTS TASTE IN YOUR CONTAMINATED BHO FROM YOUR GARBAGE PUMP? PROBABLY CAN’T TASTE IT BUT ARE PROBABLY GETTING CANCER AS I TYPE. PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES…..GEEZ. Don’t know, tests never show any to be present. We also use US made valves and seals, as well as US made pumps rated for their purpose. I WORK FOR AN INDUSTRIAL RUBBER DISTRIBUTOR AND DEAL WITH PUMPS AND DIFFERENT RUBBERS/POLYMERS ALL DAY EVERY DAY. FOOD GRADE APPLICATIONS AND FABRICATIONS AS WELL. So proud for you. It would be more impressive to offer concrete facts, rather that capitalized “shouted” opinions and creditials. I HAVE A CUSTOM EXTRACTOR I BUILT THAT IS ALL FOOD GRADE AND 100% EXCELLENT RATING FOR ALL SOLVENTS USED. WHY IN THE HELL WOULD I WANT TO RUIN ALL THAT WITH A HVAC PUMP? Define HVAC pump? The Haskel is simply a pump that also works in that application. I ALSO AM A DISTRIBUTOR FOR DIXON VALVE AND QUICK COUPLING. I’ve used Dixon, but switched to American made AT, after noting Made in China cast on the side of a 2” sanitary valve. ONE OF OUR MANY VENDORS. AMERICAN MADE AGAIN. THE QUICK DISCONNECTS I USE ARE FROM THEM AND ARE 316 SS AND HANDLE 10,000 PSI. THEY ARE QUALITY. THEY DO NOT LEAK. YOU BUY SHEET YOU GET SHEET, TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT. PARKER IS AS WELL BUT I WOULDN’T BUY THEIR IMPORT/CHINESE STUFF FOR THIS APPLICATION. BALL VALVES IN ANY SYSTEM ARE GARBAGE. DUE TO THE DESIGN WHEN YOU CLOSE THEM YOU GET A SMALL AMOUNT OF RESIDUAL LEFT IN THE VALVE. USE PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE NEEDLE VALVES. HANDLE EITHER 10,000 OR 6,000 PSI. ARE 316 SS AS WELL. MUCH BETTER CONTROL OVER YOUR SYSTEM AS WELL WHEN BLASTING, SOAKING, POWER WASHING, IN LINE DEWAXING /WINTERIZING, AND/OR RECOVERING. Yet with an abysmal CV, slow to open, and hard to clean for sanitary use. OH YEA MY SYSTEM DOES ALL THOSE FUNCTIONS AS WELL. WAY BETTER THAN ANYTHING I HAVE YET TO LAY EYES ON. ALSO DEIGNED TO EASILY DO ANYWHERE BETWEEN 1/2 OZ TO 50 LBS PER RUN. YES YOU HAVE TO CHANGE OUT A FEW PARTS OBVIOUSLY BUT ONLY THE COLLECTION AND BLAST CHAMBERS. MY SIGHT GLASS HAS 1/4″ GLASS AND WAS HYDO TESTED FOR HALF AN HOUR AT 150 PSI. I USE NEEDLE VALVES ALL OVER MY SYSTEM. PRETTY MUCH AT EVERY MAIN POINT AND ON EVERY TANK. I COULD EASILY REMOVE IF I WANTED AND NOT LOOSE A THING AS FAR AS FUNCTIONALITY. ALWAYS BEEN LESS WORRIED ABOUT IT COLLAPSING IN INSTEAD OF BLOWING OUT ANYWAY. ALL WELDS WERE DONE BY A CUSTOM SS FAB SHOP AND POLISHED BACK TO FOOD GRADE LEVELS. MY COST AND I GET STUFF CHEAP AS A DISTRIBUTOR WITH PUMP……… JUST OVER $6K. OK ONE LAST THING AND ILL CHILL. IF YOU USE PTFE OR ANY THREAD TAPE, PLEASE STOP. YES THE TAPE ITSELF IS PTFE AKA TEFLON AND HANDLES BUTANE FINE. BUT GUESS WHAT PTFE IS NOT STICKY. THE ADHESIVE USED ON THAT PTFE TAPE IS GUESS WHAT. WAIT FOR IT…………SILICONE. GARBAGE. YOU WILL PROBABLY GET LEAKS EVENTUALLY IF YOU ARE USING THIS. THE ONLY OTHER PTFE TAPE I AM AWARE OF THAT DOES NOT USE SILICONE AS AN ADHESIVE USES ACRYLIC. NOT THE SAME ACRYLIC YOU ARE PROBABLY THINKING OF EITHER. LIKE WHAT LIGHTERS ARE MADE OF. NOT THAT. ALSO I CALLED SEVERAL MANUFACTURES AND IT DOES NOT HAVE A RATING FOR BUTANE. THIS IS BECAUSE NO ON HAS EVER TESTED IT. SO IT MIGHT BE OK. I USE A NON-PTFE FOOD GRADE BUTANE AND SOLVENT SAFE PIPE PASTE. IT’S BLUE. CAN’T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE COMPANY OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. GOD BLESS HAPPY BLASTING THE HOLY GRAIL BY CATALYST We actually do use the Welch Chemical duty pumps in applications where they work and are working with Welch on pump development. In this case they don’t make a pump suitable for our extractors. How is the Haskel contaminating the solvent it reclaims and how is it unsafe? Don’t know how Chinese made seals and plastic taste in our BHO, because tests have never revealed any to be present. We also use US made valves and seals, as well as US made pumps rated for their purpose. So proud of your employment position and hope it’s paying you the big bucks. It is more impressive to the audience if you present concrete facts, vis a vis capitalized (shouted down at us) opinions, and qualifications of your credentials. Define HVAC pump? The Haskel is simply a pump that also works in our application. I’ve used Dixon, but switched to US made AT, after noting Made in China cast on the side of a 2” sanitary valve. Needle valves are excellent for metering, but typically have an abysmal CV and are slow to open, besides being hard to clean in sanitary applications. You make some good points, and propound your opinions loudly, but do not appear to have done much homework before shouting down at us.
Welch pumps do not have exproof motors!
I just want to thank you guys for all the work you've done and more importantly, made available the valuable data from your research. I read this piece last week and immediately unplugged my Appion G5. Then I ordered the the CPS TR21. I just finished my first run with it and although it's quieter than the Appion, I think it's slightly less powerful. However, safety first!! Thank you very very much for bringing this issue to light!!! You guys are really doing a great service to the community, please keep it up!!! - wisdom_mfg
I've been looking into the CHUNMU CM2000 "Oil-less compressor [with] pull-rod design" and see further with the description: "Proprietary oil-less lubrication compressor capable of handling varied kinds of refrigerants" I will be emailing the company to ask for a brochure or more information; but wanted to check if you had an opinion on the company or the model first so I can be more specific in my inquiries to the China-based manufacturer.
CM EP-OL seems to be working well and putting in the hours to determine durability.
why do you say that ALL quick disconnect fittings leak? i find it hard to believe that every single company that spends millions on research and production of quick disconnect fittings to have them leak. i spent a lot of money on sourcing stainless hydraulic quick disconnect with buna seals like the tamisium machine uses and i refuse to believe they leak. i use multiple leak detectors around my extractor in multiple places and have never seen one leak on me. just curious as to this claim.
I'm with ya dill. I think Joe is referring to VALVED quick couplings. As the valved QCs can give the false impression of a complete seal/close. A valved QC might be more prone to failure vs a 1/4-turn ball valve? Good question tho.
If you are around one long enough, it will leak. Ever walk through a factory after hours and listen to the leaking quick disconnects, that worked fine on installation, but eventually started leaking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uefR2AV_gtc Also seems as if the owner is suckign air into the system... What if a ignition source presented itself? Hydrocarbon/air bomb? Holy S%i&t, thanks for the heads up guys.
"Terms and conditions for use and purchase.The relationship between buyers and the seller shall be governed by the laws of the state of Colorado without regard to its conflict of law provisions. Buyer and the Seller agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the Superior Court of the State of Colorado for the County of Mesa or the United States District Court for the 21st Judicial District. The Sellers failure to exercise or enforce any right shall not constitute a waiver of such right. Buyer agrees that regardless of any statute or law to the contrary, any claim or cause of action arising out of or related to use of the products must be filed within one (1) year after such claim or cause of action arose, or be forever barred. The buyer agrees that all sales are final. Buyer acknowledges that use of the product will comply with local, state, and federal regulations. The buyer acknowledges that it is their own responsibility to hire competent professionals to develop safe operating procedures, to install appropriate ventilation and other necessary equipment for safe operation, and to comply with good manufacturing practices. Buyer acknowledges that while the seller has tested the materials by pressurizing to 150psi, that they are purchasing the kit without any representation of suitability for use with dangerous pressurized gases. Seller makes available a kit of parts that are combined and arranged to customer specifications. Seller provides a LIFETIME replacement guarantee (for defects in material or workmanship) on all stainless steel non-moving parts with proof of purchase and returned un-tampered original unit , as well as a 2 year warranty on valves, seals, and sight glasses." --------According to this the systems are only pressure tested to 150 psi? I thought it was standard practice to test 4x greater then the top of our working pressure. Also, I called them and they DO NOT pressure test with nitrogen or an high pressure gas. They do a real run with butane and cannabis to test it. They rely on the test gauges on the promax during testing and only use butane from store purchased lighter refill cans during testing. This disclaimer also sounds liek it was written by a five year old.
Also they recommend long term storage of butane gas in flat top and bottom cylinders? What about a crush sleeve on the bottom? These Sleeves with holes in them are not just for looks. Cylinders without a foot ring are unfit for LP or hydrocarbon use and are illegal to refill. Isolator Extractors should thank you and use this knowledge to fix all there sold (unsafe) units.
Got any views on terpp extractors? Just from their site. Not sure how much you could gather but they seem on point and were gonna be my first thought if i didnt make my own.
Terpp Extractors are a minor modification of my original ASME certified Terpenator design, made by the Chinese firm that made our kits, so should meet the same standards.
How do you feel about Bhogart extractors and there system?
I wish them well but like my own design better.
Good Day G.W. and Skunk farm crew! I first off have to thank you all for all of your time and support that you've given so generously. I, like many others know Skunk Pharm as a household name. I was recently forwarded this link. http://www.xtractix.com/refrigerant-recovery-machines-are-poisoning-the-cannabis-industry/ I have been using Appion for the past two years. I find this troublesome and would like to upgrade my pump to the highest known standard of health and safety. Please advise. .
Interesting article. The tone did seem a touch sensationalistic in places (an average of more than one recovery pump-related explosion a week? Really?) and obviously they have an agenda in promoting their own pumpless systems, which do sound quite intriguing. Still, I must admit I've been worrying so much about the dangers to me personally that I haven't really considered the metal toxicity and food safety angles. Clearly I should. Does the TR21 use copper parts? How about the mighty Haskell?
Agreed, they do have motives outside of being health conscious to promote the negative use of pumps. I had been considering upgrading to the Reftec Handivac until I read this. Though I have heard good things about the Reftec, and extraction companies such as Emotek seem to be using them. Does the Handivac also have similar issues with leaving residual toxic metals being oil less pumps?
We use the Haskel 59025 and so far the CM EP-OL is testing out well and both are certified for flammable refrigerant use.
This is wonderful! You took the time and effort to try and clean some of this new industry. The problem seems to be lack of knowledge and lack of thought. I have seen exactly what you are talking about. Bhotards and potrepeneurs trying to cash in without doing the science (for their machines). Thank you for your efforts, if this industry is to grow, it must be cleaned up. I myself am building a co2 extraction system (subcritical) and found that you have to research, ask, hire professionals for assembly and check everything 3x. If you build a machine that isn't designed or built properly you can have a situation where you have pieces of metal flying at you at bullet speed. The pressures used and the fact that if you vent too much co2 into a space, you can asphyxiate. CO2 has dangers too. Keep up the good work! I would only ask that you turn your attention to the emerging co2 extraction business, we need better knowledge, techniques, design and machinery for this rising industry. Cheers Robert e
There are non-valved quick connects that will work with butane. We've been using Parker SST-2/SST-3 quick couplings for over 8 months with no incident. All buna seals and couplings rated at 3,000 PSI. Admittedly the valved quick connects are problematic when it comes to flow, and provide a false sense of security. Proper inspection of gaskets and regular replacement of seals is essential for sound operation.
After seeing the isolation extractor guys at cannabis cup offering their elixer unit for about 1k I was curious and got one and I would agree with GW on the quality. Leaky seals in the quick connects were a nonstop headache, shipped with a cracked glass sight, as well as many other faulty products and leaky gaskets. They made right by sending replacements, but still a substandard machine that I've got collecting dust as it's not even worth selling.
I'll buy/trade for it it in denver text me if you're interested 7815883237
Everything seemed fine until you mentioned using 2-bolt high pressure triclamps on anything over 2". Although I do the same there is little risk using single pin triclamps in small diameters. See: http://hollandaptblog.com/2013/11/11/what-is-the-pressure-rating-of-sanitary-tube-and-fittings-it-depends/ See: https://www.gvc.net/docs/Triclamp%2520Pressure%2520Ratings.pdf Furthermore it's a little ridiculous to complain about Haskell being the only safe way, dissing Appion, and in the next breath saying you are using a CPS tr21. Let's call it for what it is. Haskell pump setups are expensive. That's why you're using a subpar solution. Let's not pretend it's defensible. The dream of affordable, safe, closed loop extractors is exactly that--a dream. There is simply no way to do this safely without serious investments in ventilation, explosion proof pumps, flame arrestors, relief valves, and other safety measures. We, as a community, should acknowledge the risk and not be recommending these half baked solutions simply because they save money. Flammable solvents are used throughout the food industry safely. It just costs money.
I have witnessed the clamps leaking regardless of the pressure ratings. Based on actual experience I use high pressure clamps for safety. I'm not dissing Appion; I'm sharing the same information that I personally received while speaking with one their engineers. They have even posted a bulletin on their website documenting the issue and specifically asking for people not to use them for butane. The Tr21 is designed differently than the Appion and is like comparing apple's to oranges. Haskel will put in proper seals when you tell them it's for flammable gas. It's also pressurized on the other side of the cylinder which prevents leakage. It's not practical for smaller machines that's why I use a TR21. It's not half baked; it's like a condom. It works for dangerous situations (mostly) but marriage is safer.
Curious about the comments about the RG6000. I've seen Grey Wolf rocking the RG6000 over at ICMAG with the MK V (think it was that one). I was under the assumation that all HVAC pumps were not appropriate. Is the RG6000 that much worse than the TR21? I know the TR21 w/ MT69 will smoke pretty much anything, but could you qualify how bad the RG6000 is?
JD uses an RG6000 for testing his machines. He doesn't actually run a Terpenator or put much work on the pump. The only pump he will sell you with his machines is a Haskel pneumatic. He will not accept the liability of selling you an unrated pump. The problem with the Promax, Diablo, or Appion is that they are all designed to recover mostly liquid and some occasional vapor. They are "oil less" because they take lubricant from the liquid refrigerant stream and use an air cooled condenser to turn vapor to liquid. They have "O" rings and slip rings on the pistons to allow this to happen. In the Appion they are vulcanized rubber and LDPE respectively; which if you check Cole Palmers compatibility chart, aren't suitable for Butane. Some have replaced these seals with Viton "O" rings and Teflon slip rings with limited success. Because Butane vapor will make it past these, not because it dissolves them but, because of how matter is never really solid on a molecular level. Once past the pistons it is now exposed to the motor, clutch and fan. None of which is shielded from sparking and often will because the clutch heats up under vacuum load. So, as the Engineer I spoke with at Appion so eloquently explained, fan + flame = jet turbine. He has seen more than one instance of this scenario cross his bench. So it's not a what if it blows, it's a when. One thing I don't like about the Promax specifically, is the crappy gauges, I want a little better resolution from a critical component. The reason I have found the TR21 to be such a success is because they stripped all that crap off. They designed it to work with vapor like a vacuum pump and sealed the main bearing so it can be used with flammable refrigerants. It doesn't need to be cooled and they say specifically not to cool it. The vapor needs to be chilled before it enters your tank because the output temp is around 175F. I use a 3/8"x 20'stainless coil that is easily made for under $200; in a cooler with regular ice. The MT69 is not made for Butane and will eventually clog and or leak.
Thank you for the information. It makes sense, and agrees with with what I'd been suspecting. Looks like I'm going to start investing in a TR21 as soon as possible, and selling off my RG6000. Am I right in saying that the TR21 is still a half measure, being a HVAC pump, or does it approach the granduer of a proper Haskel pneumatic in terms of how sanitary it is with R600? With your 3/8 stainless coil, do you need a pipe bender to form it into tight coils, or do you buy it already coiled? Do you use compression fittings to form fittings to screw onto? Very much appreciate hearing the voice of what seems like the R&D department at Skunk Pharm, I believe I've read other articles penned by you on this site, but I'll let ya know, your posts literally gush info :)
The coil was bent around a 10" cylinder with compression to pipe to JIC. The tr21 is suitable but is still not in the same class as a Haskel.
Joe....where does one find a 3/8" X 20' stainless pipe to make one of these coils? What kind of stainless steel works best for this? Thank you for all of your hard work and research.
Try a hardware store.
Someone on Facebook pointed me towards amazon. They have 50ft coils of 3/8 stainless for $70.
yes
Things i didnt like about my extractor from IE -Lubricant on ball valves and quick connects (there's a small amount of lubricating oil on the ball valves and quick connects when they come from the factory so that they move smoothly and dont rust. I Had to spend time cleaning all the parts of my extractor with iso very thoroughly before i used it. -Use of (excessive) pipe dope. ( I had a replacement part shipped after i bought the extractor due to a leak, the replacement fittings were caked with pipe dope, so much that it was just crumbling right off the fitting and making a mess every where. -Leaky fitting on BUTANE TANK ( The non rated butane tank that they give you to use as a recovery tank, mine had a leaky fitting on the 1/4'' TEE i had to get a replacement and re tighten it. -Welds(as you pointed out they are not welded on both inside and outside, i feel like this could be a problem eventually -Use of 304 china SS over 316 USA SS ( just feel like you can cheap out and get tons of china fittings for cheap, or you can spend a little more, charge a little more, and use usa 316 parts. On the plus side the extractor does what i need it to do, the customer service is pretty good, fast response times and they seem to do what they need to , in order to make the customer happy. With all that being said i feel like there is probably better routes to take, if you have the extra money, buy an expensive unit!
If you think the leaky tee was a problem, just wait until a seam opens up on your tank or your sight glass explodes.