Decarboxylation

Cannabis produces phyto cannabinoids in a carboxylic acid form that are not orally active at least at the CB-1 receptor sites, because they don’t readily pass the blood brain barrier in their polar form.

To enable them to pass the blood brain barrier, they must first be decarboxylated, to remove the COOH carboxyl group of atoms, which exits in the form of H20 and CO2.

Decarboxylation occurs naturally with time and temperature, as a function of drying, but we can shorten the amount of time required considerably, by adding more heat.  The more heat, the faster it occurs, within reasonable ranges, and in fact occurs spontaneously when the material is burned or vaporized.

There is another mechanism at play however, which suggests that we need to control the decarboxylation temperatures carefully.

When we heat cannabis to convert the THCA and CBDA into THC and CBD, we are also converting THC to CBN at a faster rate.  At about 70% decarboxylation, we actually start converting THC to CBN at a faster rate than we are converting THCA to THC, so as you can see by the following graph, after about 70% decarboxylation, the levels of THC actually start to fall sharply.

That of course means that the CBN also begins to rise and the medication is becoming more sedative.

Thank you Jump 117 for this excellent graph!

Decarboxylation Graph-1-1

Decarboxylation graph

Another fly in the ointment, is that we can never know for sure exactly what the starting state of decarboxylation is, so the times at temperature shown on the graphs are an average.

We can’t expect dry material placed in an oven at any given temperature to be that uniform temperature throughout instantly upon placing it in a heated oven, nor know for sure the state of decarboxylation by simple observation.

Decarboxylating plant material, also alters the taste (roasted/toasted), which some find less agreeable, and of course decarboxylating also evaporates away the smaller Monoterpenes and Sequiterpenes alcohols, phenols, ketones, aldehydes, ethers, and esters.

The good news is that it is dirt simple to monitor the state of cannabis oil decarboxylation placed in a 121C/250F hot oil bath, because you can watch the CO2 bubble production.

Just like the curves suggest, CO2 bubble production will proceed at its own observable rate. By keeping the puddle of oil lightly stirred on the bottom and in the corners of the pot (I use a bamboo skewer), so as to keep the bubbles broken free and floating to the top, you can tell exactly when the bubble formation suddenly tapers off at the top of the curve.

That is the point that we take it out of the oil for maximum head effect, and we leave it in until all bubbling stops, if we want a more sedative night time med.

Here are a couple pictures of what oil looks like when boiling off the residual butane.  Residual butane or alcohol produces larger, randomly sized bubbles, and is fully purged, when they cease.

I am seemingly missing the middle picture of the CO2 bubbles, so I will add it later, but the second picture shows what fully decarboxylated oil looks like.

Residual solvent bubbles above:

Quiescent oil.

341 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Dr Decarb on December 18, 2014 at 9:37 AM

    Based on the above chart, I developed what I think is a completely unique and sure fire way to get max THC, and for the most part all other cannabinoids, in a process that takes less than 2 hours and produces very potent infusions into any fatty oil which is stable up to 300F. I`ll post the how-to below, but the basics are to PREHEAT your fatty oil to 250F then dump your dry good into the hot oil. Decarb begins more a less instantly with no guessing about the rise time for temperatures, and everything in the plant goes into and stays in the oil. You just need to maintain around 250F for about 25-28 minutes.

    Materials:
    Min. .25 oz ground Cannabis
    100ML Coconut Oil
    250F Meat Thermometer
    6 inch Stainless Steel Sauce Pan (high quality, heavier gauge preferred)
    10-12 inch Pyrex Pie Plate
    Gas or Electric range or other suitable pan warmer
    Coffee filter, or other preferred straining device

    How To:

    With Meat Thermometer in Saucepan, place 100ML Coconut Oil in pan on low heat until 255F is reached. If doing the small .25 batch, take great care that you only measure the oil temp and that the Meat Thermometer does not contact the side or bottom of the pan when doing so. I measured a 20-30F difference vs. just leaving the Meat Thermometer in place with the pan still flat on the burner. I found tilting the pan to pool the Coconut Oil is the only way to get an accurate reading. Although larger batches would likely be easier to monitor and measure. Once a stable temp is attained pour and stir entire quantity of Cannabis into preheated Coconut Oil and simmer maintaining 250F for 25-28 minutes. Stir frequently. Then remove from heat and pour Coconut Oil/Cannabis mix onto the Pie Plate. Let stand for 3-4 minutes. Strain, refrigerate.

    While the simmering temp is 250F, the preheat temp is 255F, as I speculated a drop in temp when the Cannabis is dumped in. Also be absolutely certain your dry goods are really dry goods. At 250F there was a little foam up when placed into the hot oil, but I could see where undried Cannabis could be a problem, especially if temps were higher that measured. Don`t let the Coconut Oil exceed appox. 270F at any time, as there begins to be discoloration at around 280, and smoke at around 300F.

    The concept behind this is to produce a quick, reliable, reproducible, method for a potent Coconut Oil Infusion based on a precise decarboxylation method. I decided on the 252/30 minute profile, allowing for some continued conversion by shortening it a bit. I did the process in about an hour, however it could very leisurely, and carefully done by less experienced people in 2 hrs.

    I’ve never had much success with either my own, or other peoples edibles (except a micro batch of CO I did), but this method, at least for me, has produced 4 straight VERY STRONG infusions. Two .25 teaspoon doses an hour apart in the morning produces a high I can still feel late into the afternoon. If you let it linger in your mouth before swallowing you will feel a slight buzz about 5 minutes after, but the real peak takes about 1.5 to 2 hrs. My starting material is just average. High quality medical would no doubt produce superbly medicinal and psychoactive infusions.

    Reply

  2. […] Posted by 3leggedkitty Decarboxylation | Skunk Pharm Research LLC Marijuana Growers HQ – Decarboxylating Cannabis: Turning THCA into THC this is all […]

    Reply

  3. What ratio do I mix my vegetable glycerin to propylene glycol , for marijuana e-cig oil ?

    Reply

  4. Posted by MattMatt on December 14, 2014 at 9:20 AM

    No, if you don’t decarb then it will be mostly THCA or CBDA, depending on strain. Decarboxylation converts the THCA to THC and the CBDA to CBD. If you do not decarb then there will be little to no CBD, it will be CBDA. It is true that you don’t need to decarb if you are vaporising or smoking it (as the heat involved will decarb it anyway). Decarboxylation is only need if you are eating it. For some conditions the raw may be a better option. There is a lot of evidence, though mostly anecdotal at this stage, that raw THCA is actually better than CBD for epilepsy as many Dravet’s patients are reporting better results with THCA tinctures than with CBD dominant oils.
    But it is important to remember that decarboxylation is needed to convert the raw cannabinoid acids like THCA and CBDA to THC and CBD. Raw does not have CBD or THC, it is THCA and CBDA. If you want CBD then you need a strain with high CBD, but in its raw form it will be CBDA and you need to decarb it to make it CBD. Same goes for converting THCA to THC, CBGA to CBG, CBCA to CBC, CBNA to CBN etc.

    Reply

  5. Posted by Josh on December 13, 2014 at 11:51 PM

    Hey quick few questions. I tried to make a 100% vg based cannabis e juice. I did not decarb I just put the bud and vg oil in a jar and let it sit on low for like 5 hours stirring occasionally. so that would mean it’s mostly cbd? And if I had decarbed before I did that it would be more thc? I read that you dont have to decarb before if your going to vape the stuff….. I would also like to like to use the oil for tea… I would just like to have a higher thc content even though the cbds are good for my epilepsy

    Reply

    • If you extract your spent material again with fresh glycerin, you will see that after a 5 hour, occasional stir extraction, that there is a lot still left.

      The plant genetics determine the CBD levels, and I think you probably mean CBN, which is the degenerated byproduct of THC.

      You don’t need to decarboxylate if you are going to subsequently vaporize the glycerin tincture, but do need to for oral consumption, because the carboxylic acid cannabinoid forms cannot readily pass the blood brain barrier to reach the CB-1 receptors.

      Reply

  6. […] Originally Posted by PlanetJ This might be of help to determine when you want to harvest: Amber Trichomes and THC to CBD? If you want more couch-lock from a meds-batch, you can decarboxylate the buds by putting them in a oven-proof and airtight container and 'baking' them for half an hour @ 122C/252F. What this does is first convert THCA to THC (this normally happens during smoking/vaping) and if you continue, it will convert most THC to CBN. See Decarboxylation | Skunk Pharm Research LLC […]

    Reply

  7. Posted by MattMatt on November 25, 2014 at 3:56 PM

    I think that is a lot down to the limits to how high you can get from smoking. A lot of people, myself included, would smoke a whole joint even when a third way through I am already fully high and the remaining joint would just be smoked for no real reason. It’s not getting me any higher and its not making my high last longer. When you smoke cannabis you only get so high before your brain starts releasing chemicals to prevent further psychoactive effects. Where as when you eat there is no such limits. Because of the way your liver drip feeds the THC to your brain the more you have the longer lasting and often more intense the high is.
    My point is that the minimum amount needed to get you high is higher when eating, but as you say once you pass that limit the high can be more intense and longer lasting from eating it.
    Cooking a whole joints worth may get you higher than smoking that joint because your brain limits how much THC activation in your brain occurs from smoking and regardless of how much you smoke the high will always last about the same amount of time, where as the more you eat the longer the high lasts and the more intense it is.
    If you worked out how much of the joint you need to get high and then cooked and ate that I bet you’d feel little or nothing.
    I cooked a small bud up once and ate it and felt nothing, even though I know that smoking it would have got me high, but when I cooked a larger amount (a couple of small buds) I was way higher than I could have got smoking it. So I think the minimum is larger when eating it but once you take enough to get high then how high you get from eating, along with how long it lasts, is way more from eating

    Reply

    • Posted by illybilly on November 29, 2014 at 7:02 AM

      there are a lot of variables and using a joint as a unit of measurement is silly. There are specific temps you need to hit (look at graph) and times in order to get the most out of your thc (or what your trying to do with it). You go to high on the temp and you destroy the terps. go to low and on a portion of the thc is decarbed. Lots of trial and error and its also strain specific as welas grow quality. So what you may find works great with a Bubba Kush may not work the same with a sour D. Another thing is that you can decarb beyond thc to have a CBD edible.

      Its not quite as simple as throwing a nug in your toaster oven.

      Reply

  8. love the decarb process i find 7 min around 245 is amazing

    Reply

  9. […] order to get cannabichromene, decarboxylation must occur. Over time, or quickly if exposed to heat, the CBCA will lose a molecule of CO2; at this […]

    Reply

  10. Posted by MattMatt on November 15, 2014 at 7:34 PM

    yes, if you are smoking or vaporising then you do not need to concern yourself with decarboxylation as it happens through the heat involved in smoking or vaping. In fact many people prefer not to decarb if they are going to smoke or vaporise as full decarb usually causes a loss of most of the terpenes which give the smell and flavour. Decarboxylation is only important if you are going to eat the cannabis. Then you need to decarb fully because raw THCA does not get you high (and is less medicinally active for many things including cancer) so unconverted THCA eaten is a waste from a getting high point of view. Full decarb is giving you maximum THC when eating, but smoking it then THCA or THC will be THC when you inhale, so decarb won’t matter

    Reply

  11. Posted by Lola on November 13, 2014 at 12:38 AM

    so I’m trying to make a tincture using a sativa that was harvested last year and has pretty much dried out, is it still necessary to decarb it or has it perhaps already undergone this process just by time? thank you

    Reply

    • Posted by illybilly on November 29, 2014 at 7:06 AM

      Yes you will still need to decarb for sure. It has likely decarbed a bit naturally but your body may only absorb a small amount into your body until its completely or 70% decarbed. You may notice that if decarb at to high a temp or for to long you may get a heavier effect.

      Reply

  12. Posted by Jared on November 12, 2014 at 7:24 PM

    So I want to make a THC E-juice so I can vape it, with out using my vapor pen so I can mix it with other flavors, in order to vape on it at a slower rate through my E-cig. So I’m wondering if I have to decarboxylate it in Vegetable glycerin in order to properly mix it so I can mix it with e-juice flavors.

    Reply

    • Posted by jeff on November 13, 2014 at 12:41 PM

      you do not need to decarb oil for this!!! mix shatter with Polyethelyn glycol at 150 until viscous then add. no need for decarb

      Reply

  13. Posted by georgius on November 11, 2014 at 11:40 PM

    I would only go for a partial decarb as baking brownies requires high temps for a decent amount of time. It also depends how you infuse the wax into the butter or oil. If your wax is pretty fresh id say 240 for about 15 minutes then infuse it into your fat in a double boiler at a low temp until its melted in evenly. At this point whatever hasnt converted should decarb when you cook the brownies. Though this really depends how fresh the original material is.

    Reply

  14. Posted by Will Harrison on November 4, 2014 at 1:38 PM

    Can you vac oven flowers to get complete conversion of THCa to THC while maintaining all the terpenes, if one was inclined to do so :)

    Reply

  15. […] I'm dosing with a dropper and counting off the drops so its always the same and not a sloppy process like with the syringe. I got tired of "winging it" with the syringes and needed accuracy and reproducibility. I just stick the dropper in hot water prior to dosing to make the oil more runny and count off the drops that I take. The dosage is exactly the same but the decarboxylation of each oil is done differently so the outcome is different. With the same dose, on the same person at the same time of day one, given below the tongue (for faster absorption) one oil (the one decarbed for high THC) gives off a strong head high, makes you sleepy while the other one (the one with reduced THC) gives more of a body high and doesn't make you sleepy. Getting that has high CBD from the getgo would probably be best though. You can read more about it here: Decarboxylation | Skunk Pharm Research LLC […]

    Reply

  16. Posted by Rich on October 5, 2014 at 12:33 PM

    I want to decarb pollen for chocolates or hard candy.

    I have successfully decarbed oil, but not tried pollen.

    Should I dissolve the pollen in warm coconut oil and decarb in a hot oil bath, 290 for 7 or so minutes, or put pollen in oven at 240 for 20 min?

    How much pollen per oz of coconut oil??

    Thank you for running this board, the info is priceless!!

    Tnleafer

    Reply

    • Posted by Duke silver on November 11, 2014 at 7:20 AM

      You said you have decarbed oil? I’m new to making edibles and the decarbig process as well. I want to decarb only a gram of wax for a batch of 12 brownies. How did you decarb your concentrate/ how should I decarb this wax?

      Reply

  17. Posted by charlie on September 29, 2014 at 7:55 PM

    quick question on decarbing. My oven(house oven) only goes down to 170, how long should I bake for? I want high thc, not cbd

    Reply

    • Posted by tehcook on October 2, 2014 at 10:30 AM

      Don’t use the stove. If the oil gets above 150 degrees, the thc will start to evaporate. It’s better to invest a little money and buy a electric cooking plate and an infrared temperature sensor to make sure the oil doesn’t get overheated. Preferably the oil should stay between 100-130 degrees to be safe. You know you’ll be done when the oil around 120 degrees and doesn’t produce any bubbles.

      Reply

      • Posted by leyzkush on October 4, 2014 at 12:06 PM

        I am assuming 170 is in degrees ferenheit in that case I would go for around 10 – 15 min unless of course you are like me and process a pound plus in that case around 40 min however in anycase when trying to decarb I never do it just the green I always have it in a alcohol or fat that way any vaporised terpenes are able to bond to the solvent before escaping as a vapor I would also suggest refraining from decarbing unless you intend on orally ingesting as this is a step only required for edibles to allow for passing of the blood brain barrier I would also suggest using coconut oil as it is a fat absorbed through the intestinal linings which allows for the bypassing of your liver meaning your liver doesn’t filter or effect the cannabinoid profile as well as your body doesn’t produce bile or digestive salts to try to digest that type of fat as it is readily absorbed without the need of those digestive processes.** make sure oven has a good preheat the element turning on can actually cause temp fluctuations in any metal cooking sheets as they more readily absorb thermal energy and can reach 200 degrees plus fairly quikly.

        Reply

        • Did you even look at the graph? I’m pretty sure ideal time is (depending) 20-27 with 252’F. Correct if wrong

          Reply

          • I used a candy thermometer to gauge the ISO liquor cooking in an oil bath set at 250 ‘F. The temperature stayed consistent at around 150 ‘F until most of the alcohol dissipated. Then the temperature slowly raised to 250 ‘F as the bubbles presented as a foam. The most difficult part of the process was the strong smell of something burning. H2O was added, too, during the cook. Later, it was understood the burnt smell was from gum on the side of the pan. Oil rendered at 250 ‘F worked out Great! Thanks Skunkpharmresearch. You guys rock…

        • Posted by jeff on November 13, 2014 at 12:46 PM

          Decorating oil isn’t making able to pass through the blood barrier its so that its active to any skin membrane. When you bake pot into butter or fat, your encasing the THC in the fat molecules so the thc is then absorbed in those uptakes. Yea you have to bake it to decarb for the first 15 min but after your absorbing into the fats in the solution

          Reply

  18. I was able to find gold information from your articles.

    Reply

  19. Question. When doing IPA solvent extractions using rotovaps can vacuum ovens be used to pull out the remaining solvent AND decarb the oil? It seems that high grade vacuum ovens can reach the temperatures and uniformity needed to activate the THC/CBD. I have searched but couldn’t find a solid answer either way. I am trying to learn and have a basic understanding but am hung up on how to scale up the decarb process when making concentrated oils.

    Thank you!

    Reply

    • Posted by mdd4890 on September 25, 2014 at 8:30 PM

      I don’t know but I have purchased both and will try to give an update. The rotavap is great. That and a hot plate work well..can evaporate the solvent and not go over 80° the whole process then use the hot plate to decarboxylate. I’m waiting on the vacuum oven to arrive and plan to test it out soon. My question would be how hot and for how long should the process take for let’s say an oz of oil in one of those stainless steel containers that is pictured above to decarboxylate without converting too much thc to cbn? Considering that the solvent was evaporated from the oil without ever going over 150°F. I have read that thca converts to thc at 240°F so we would want to at least get it up to 240/250 right?

      Reply

      • Posted by leyzkush on October 4, 2014 at 12:29 PM

        Just a quick FYI you do not want to heat up an extraction that has been done with ISA as when heated the THC as well as other cannabinoids form a chemical bond with the alcohol making it a solution which is damn near impossible to purge using only heat and negative pressure ie. vacuum at this point any substances you have made have bonded and can only be isolated and separated using other chemical extraction processes that would destabilize and separate the solution and without the proper lab equipment the average person cannot do this. You should leave it in a casserole dish at room temperature with a fan blowing on it for 2-3 tays or until all the alcohol has evaporated doing It this way will allow for the solvent to evaporate without actually melting or bonding aany of the cannabinoids. I would also refrain from decarbing as this is a step only needed for edibles as the acidic form of cannabinoids is not readily absorbed by the body and needs to be heated above 140 degrees fahrenheit to alter it chemically and allow your body to absorb it as your body is only 98 degrees fahrenheit this doesn’t happen naturally and needs to be done prior to ingesting however when the intention is to smoke the cannabinoids they are almost instantaneously converted to there neutral state from the acidic as the combustion source is much hotter than 298 degrees Fahrenheit as at that temperature it only takes roughly 2 minutes to alter to a neutral state so to wrap it all up dont heat your oil when purging and you do not need to decarb any cannabinoids that are going to be coming in contact with a combustion source hotter than 298 degrees fahrenheit ie. smoking it. I should also mention that ISA oil cannot be used in any edibles as it has been altered by the alcohol and has formed hydro-carbon molecules within it meaning it is poisonous if ingested orally.

        Reply

        • Please cite your source for this reaction.

          Reply

        • Posted by mdd4890 on October 4, 2014 at 10:25 PM

          I guess I wasn’t really clear enough. The oil is being ingested. I just used a rotavap, hot plate and a inferred thermometer to make it. Rick Simpson says THC needs to be in the oil to be able to cure cancer. That’s why I heated it up. I just don’t want to get it too hot or heat it too long. I’m also not using isopropyl alcohol I used petroleum ether. It’s boiling point starts at 35c which is not much more than room temperature under vacuum. All I know is the oil taste good so I’m not worried about any residual solvent. as opposed to chemo and radiation a trace amount of ether is just fine. Oh and the oil isn’t for myself . Thanks for the information.

          Reply

  20. sorry, I am lost. you say … “as you can see by the following graph, after about 70% decarboxylation, the levels of THC actually start to fall sharply.”… excuse me, where exactly in the graph is that “70%”? and where exactly, in which curve “THC falls”? thanks so much

    Reply

    • Posted by MattMatt on September 1, 2014 at 8:06 AM

      If you see the line for 145c it get’s to 15mg/g (about 70%) of THC and then drops after about 7 minutes, the 122c line drops at about 70% too but after nearly 30 minutes, the lower temps we don’t actually see reach 70% in the time frame shown on the graph as it only goes up to 50 minutes. The drop indicates that THC is degrading to CBN at a faster rate than the THCA is converting to THCA. Longer times at lower temps has the conversion of THCA to THC is much slower and takes more than an hour to get to those levels and THC will start to degrade to CBN before it even gets to 70%.
      The graph took me a while to understand too and it is frustrating that it doesn’t observe the lower temps for longer so we can see how their curves progress, but basically it is saying that it is hard to convert all THCA to THC with out degrading THC to CBN. GW Pharmaceuticals have a patent on cannabis as a cancer treatment (20130059018) which details that different heating stages helps get maximum decarboxylation with minimal degradation to CBN. I forget the exact times and temps but I think it was something like 30 minutes at 100c then 30 minutes at 120c. Check out the patent and it will give the exact method they use. The only way to be sure is to get it tested and in the absence of testing facilities you can either make sure decarb is 100% but end up with some degradation of CBN, or avoid CBN but end up with unconverted THCA. Depends on what you are treating but for cancer full decarb is recommended as THC is most potent against cancer while CBN also has some value in that regard, while THCA is not considered to be cancer killing based on current evidence, though is believed to have some anti cancer effect

      Reply

  21. FOR CANCER CURE STANDARD USE AND TYPICAL SERVING SIZE:
    Keep Hemp CBD oil refrigerated. Shake well before using. Most people
    swallow 15 drops or more, as desired. The amount of CBD oil that people
    take on a daily basis can vary greatly. Our CBD oil can be ingested morning
    or night, on an empty or full stomach. Shelf life is approximately 2 years.†
    If 15 drops are taken twice a day, 1 ounce of CBD oil will last 30 days.
    Due to the number of messages i get a day on my page i have decided
    that i open a friendship handler (page) in other to respond to your request
    faster and better You can now add me,Look forward to your request.
    Get back to me via:ricksimpsonn@gmail.com

    Reply

  22. […] Green Dragon veröffentlicht, für den man nur 3,5 Gramm Marihuana zermahlen, bei 100°C im Ofen decarboxylieren und dann das Gras mit 750ml Alkohol in einen hitzeresistenten Sahnespender geben muss. Dann dem […]

    Reply

  23. The CO2 release referred to here can be seen clearly in my canna-butter video: http://youtu.be/_Kr12hj6erk?t=11m43s

    Reply

  24. […] a nitrous-powered Green Dragon that requires nothing more than grinding up an 1/8 ounce of pot and decarboxylating it in the oven at 212 degrees for about an hour, then putting the decarbed bud and 750 ml of booze […]

    Reply

  25. Posted by klaatu on July 28, 2014 at 6:44 PM

    Greetings GW. I have been blessed by your shared wisdom in these matters for a long time now, well before this site gathered so much of it together, and added so immensely to it. You have scattered cogent posts among various older forums, and it wasn’t so conveniently arranged as it has now become. Thank you for your persistent contributions, exemplary vision and truly public service

    I haven’t commented or written ever before, I typically work pretty silently in the back of the back room, but now your well sustained open spirit is infecting even me. I would be very grateful to hear what you might say in clarification of something having to do with all this, should you wish to…

    “many of the terpenes (d-limonene, linalool, mycrene, a-pinene etc.) are evaporated off when you decarboxylate cannabis oil”

    I have seen this statement, or one like it, many times, here and elsewhere. I find this more than somewhat confusing, since the boiling points of these terps are all quite high, well above normal decarb temps:

    Limonene Boiling point 176 °C (349 °F; 449 K) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limonene
    Linalool Boiling point 198–199 °C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linalool
    Myrcene Boiling point 166-168 °C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrcene
    Pinene Boiling point 155 °C (311 °F; 428 K) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-Pinene
    Terpinolene Boiling points a: 173.5-174.8 °C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terpinolene

    With the exception of Pinene, these are all higher temps than the boiling point of THC itself

    Some time ago, after quite a bit of study on an extraction issue, I found an old patent from the 50s that dealt with *removing* terpenes from essential oils used in the fragrance industry, because they would break down during the distillation or storage and produce off smells:

    “natural oils contain terpenes and sesquiterpenes which, in general, oxidize readily in the air with the development of unpleasant odors and flavors”

    http://www.google.com/patents/US2712008

    Some of the wiki articles on these canna terps also mention this degradation. Humulene is especially reactive with atmospheric ozone in sunlight, with a lifetime of a couple minutes.

    This decomposition of terpenes results from exposure to heat, light, and oxygen. This is why they are so ephemeral, they decompose very readily, especially with heating, like during decarb. It would not seem that they vanish rapidly due to evaporation at these temps that are quite below their boiling points.

    also from this patent:

    “The terpenes may be recovered … by distillation. Vacuum distillation is preferred to minimize decomposition of the terpenes.”

    If the terpenes are heated enough to boil/evaporate, then they have already decomposed instead, unless it is done under vacuum at much lower temps.

    They do vaporize to some degree at temps below their boiling points, like water slowly disappearing out of a drinking glass at room temp. That’s why we smell them. But their woeful loss during these extraction and decarb procedures does not appear to me to be due to evaporation, like so many enthusiasts seem to think, and say.

    This patent also makes note of ‘terpenophilic solvents’, down near the bottom, in the claims. Non-polar hexane is very terpenophilic. Other solvents are non-terpenophilic, like acetone, which they used to extract everything but the terps.

    My feeling on all this is that the absence of satisfying terp levels in various procedural results is much less because they evaporated, and much more because they decomposed along the way, or perhaps weren’t all that present to begin with because of the use of a non-terpenophilic solvent

    Kind regards. Comments invited

    Reply

    • Morning Klaatu!

      An interesting theory, and well presented! Good job!

      I pulled the vapor pressures of the monoterpenes in question and some are indeed suspiciously low given their aromatic nature, lending credence to the theory that what we are smelling, is not just molecules escaping low intermolecular forces and colliding with our noses, but the degradation products of the terpenes that were cast off, colliding with our noses.

      I copied the patent in question, and will review it in greater detail, as well as ask our biotech Joe to join me in analyzing the issue.

      More after doing so. Thanks for the insight!

      Peace, GW

      Reply

      • Posted by JPene on August 25, 2014 at 12:22 PM

        Just curious if you have any follow-up for Klaatu…I am also interested in this matter. Many thanks in advance!

        Reply

  26. Posted by Joe C on July 24, 2014 at 6:43 PM

    Ive been searching the interwebs in order to create a specific oil to aid a family friend with type 1 diabetes… From what i can gather, CBN is what i’m trying to amplify. With that in mind & based on the fact TCH converts to CBN if decarb’d longer, how long would you leave it @ 250 – 270 F ?? Cheers, Joe

    Reply

    • Posted by Kyle on July 26, 2014 at 2:47 PM

      Just a thought, but you may be able to find pure CBN extracts online since this isolated chemical isn’t scheduled. I know a friend of mine was able to order big syringes full of CBD oil from amazon.

      Reply

      • Posted by Joe C on July 27, 2014 at 4:56 PM

        I live in AUS so i’m not sure the same applies here, but will look into it. Also i’ve heard that CBN alone is not the best as one also requires the many other components of cannibis plant. Correct me if i’m wrong as i’m a cannabis oil noob!

        Reply

  27. What about bubble hash, how could you monitor it’s decarb. rate? Just by color or is there a more specific way of judging it’s percentage of decarboxylation? I feel like over-heating and surpassing the 70% might be a big problem in most edible makers recipes at the moment, or at least I’ve personally noticed a lack in potency with hash infused edibles. What’s different about the process with a water extract versus chemical?

    Reply

    • Posted by MattMatt on July 21, 2014 at 6:16 AM

      It is harder to judge when Hash is finished decarbing, same goes for plant material. Oil you can tell by the bubbles. Hash I wouldn’t know. I think if you cooked it for between 30 to 60 minutes at temps between 110 and 130c then you are pretty certain to get your hash decarboxylated to a near full degree with out too much over cooking. But the precision is easier to gage with oil because you can use the activity as an indication of decarboxylation.
      Water extractions are generally less efficient that solvents because THC is not water soluble so it is not actually dissolving into the water, it’s more like just being washed off in a more crude manner. Solvents that require heat to boil off will result in some partial decarboxylation, where as cold extraction solvents like Butane will not result in any decarboxylation, but both methods require additional cooking. As for cooking hash or plant material, the best you can do (to my knowledge) is cook it for the appropriate times and temps and hope that decarb is achieved with out too much overcooking.

      Reply

    • I add my bubble and coconut oil into a double boiler and stir until combined at 180 F until I see the same decarb bubbles in said my compound oil. It sits on the stove for 45 minutes and then is added to any recipe I want. My ratios are 7g hash to 1/2 cup coconut oil. My standard edible recipe uses the entire 1/2 cup and makes 36 strong doses. I eat at this dose but other patients can cut that 72 doses and be very satisfied with the results. This places the dose at 0.19 g per edible, or about 5 edibles per gram. I have never had anyone complain about our edibles and most say they get the 72 doses per batch. Good luck!

      Reply

      • Posted by MattMatt on October 8, 2014 at 2:31 PM

        I would be surprised if decarboxylation was completed in 45 minutes at 180F (or am I misunderstanding your method?). Certainly it would cause partial decarb but I would expect it to take many hours to complete full decarb at such a low temp. I think it would be good for tests to be done on partial decarboxylation at lower temps so we can gain a better idea of decarboxylation rates at temps below the optimum. It seems clear that between 220 and 260F is the ideal temps for rapid decarb (with in an hour) but temps below that should be looked at in more detail. For example the oil made by boiling off the alcohol (which would be about 180F) would cause partial decarb, but no one really knows how partial the decarb is. Generally it is recommended to apply additional cooking to complete decarb. It might seem decarb is complete because it gets you high, but it may only be half cooked or less, where as full decarb will be much more potent.

        Reply

  28. Posted by JLVanta on July 11, 2014 at 2:43 AM

    Incredible stuff on this site! Love it!

    I have some questions as a newbie, I have seen many videos starting from the original RS Video, to this one I found on a Dutch site quite impressive and easy for everyone to do… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sse-NFWJv8c

    None of them decarboxylat the oil and its seems to work anyway…

    Some Chemical Phd said that while decarboxylat translates your THCA CBDA –> THC CBD…it also destroys or decreases (partially or completly dont know) the other good stuff…to name a few (tetrahydrocannabivarin, myrcene, caryophyllene, d-limonene ,linalool, pulegone,cineole ,a-pinene,a-terpineol,terpineol-4-ol,p-cymene apigenin, quercetin, cannflavin A etc..)
    I am really sorry for not providing a link to thois theory, because I lost the bookmarks, so do you think that there is some thruth about it?
    I want to make some oil for my Mother with Chronic Pain, would like to do it right…

    Thanks to all!

    Reply

    • Posted by MattMatt on July 11, 2014 at 10:37 AM

      It is true that many of the terpenes (d-limonene, linalool, mycrene, a-pinene etc.) are evaporated off when you decarboxylate cannabis oil, and obviously all the cannabinoid acids are lost as they are converted to the neutral cannabinoids. However it is the neutral cannabinoids that are most important for treating many conditions, especially cancer.
      Terpenes can be sourced from other plants as they are present in many things. Citrus fruits contain d-limonene for example, Linalool is in mint and cinnamon, Myrcene is found in thyme and lemon grass. So you could make other extracts for terpene content if you wish to supplement the cannabis oil.
      Another option chosen by many is to make both raw and cooked cannabis oil and take both so that you can get decarboxylated cannabinoids from the cooked oil and cannabinoid acids and terpenes from the raw. The video from the link you provided did involve some heat so would likely have been partially decarboxylated. Partial decarb is also something that people opt for as partially cooked oils contain activated cannabinoids and cannabinoid acids, along with whatever terpenes remain.
      Personally I think you are best either cooking oil fully or leaving it completely raw and simply taking both if you wish to utilise both, as oppose to partial decarboxylation. As partial decarb is harder to dose as you don’t know how much decarboxylation has occurred. Where as if you have fully cooked oil you can dose it more accurately and then take raw oils as a supplement to the treatment.
      For chronic pain I honestly do not know which is better, so maybe someone else could advise. Cooked cannabis is definitely better for cancer as the actives cannabinoids like THC and CBD are far more effective against cancer than cannabinoid acids or terpenes. And I would expect decarboxylated cannabis to be better for chronic pain, but I have heard that many people have found raw to be better for chronic pain. So you might need to try both and see which works best.
      For most conditions, including cancer, the most ideal scenario is to have large amounts of both raw and cooked cannabis oil. But for most people access is limited and choosing the optimum for their conditions is necessary. As I said for most conditions cooked cannabis is more potent, but there are some conditions that respond better to the cannabinoid acids and some patients who have reported better relief from raw.
      So for your mother you may need to experiment a bit and try her on both. She will be able to take much larger amounts of raw oil with no psychoactive effects, where as cooked will require her to start with very small doses and slowly build up a tolerance.
      Like I said if you go for fully decarboxylated and wish to add some terpenes to make up for what is lost then you can make other extracts for terpenes or add things like turmeric, citrus fruits and ginger to her regime.
      Hope this is of help to you.

      Reply

      • Posted by margaret on July 29, 2014 at 11:22 PM

        If the oil was made a few days ago and one wasn’t sure if it was properly decarboxylated can u put it in the oven days later and decarboxylate?

        Reply

        • Posted by MattMatt on July 29, 2014 at 11:50 PM

          Yes. If you are ever in doubt if oil is fully decarboxylated you can heat it to 110c and see if there is activity on the surface. If there is not then the oil is done, if there is then keep cooking until activity stops. Some people stop cooking just before all activity stops to avoid degrading any THC to CBN. But such degradation is minimal if you stop cooking as soon as activity stops and is better to have fully decarboxylated oil with a little CBN than half cooked oil with more THCA than THC

          Reply

  29. […] carboxylic acid (THCA), which becomes THC when exposed to heat or UV light. Because of this decarboxylation process, most of the THC you experience when smoking cannabis is actually THCA in the flower […]

    Reply

  30. […] always remember that eating decarboxylated marijuana produces a far stronger effect than smoking the same amount of raw plant material, […]

    Reply

  31. […] always remember that eating decarboxylated marijuana produces a far stronger effect than smoking the same amount of raw plant material, […]

    Reply

    • Posted by MattMatt on September 26, 2014 at 7:28 AM

      I’m not sure that is true. Smoking a few puffs or cannabis will get most people high. Eating that same quantity, even fully decarboxylated, will probably not result in any psychoactive effects. It is true that eating cannabis results in stronger effects that often last longer than smoking once you get into the larger quantities, especially as smoking any amount of cannabis will where off in the same time period (usually about 3 hours) where as increased amounts ingested can result in longer lasting effects. But the minimum required to get high from eating is usually larger than what is required from smoking

      Reply

      • Posted by Marcus on November 25, 2014 at 2:42 PM

        My own Personal experience of Ingestion , using one particular method , was the exact opposite. I have eaten cookies , truffles etc and I agree that there is a requirement for a larger dose of Cannabis to get high when using these methods ……but when i put a joints worth of resin onto a table spoon with a few drops of standard veg oil , heated the bottom of the spoon until it started boiling then took it off the heat , stirred it with a cocktail stick , added infused oil into a bog standard small pot of Yoghurt and consumed……i would be Tottaly Bombed for the whole evening….sometimes welded to the couch unable to speak or think ….best of all go to bed early and have the sleep of my life , though usually wake up a bit fuzzy. My friends and myself all noted that our intake of cannabis reduced down to as low as 25% of the amount used when smoking and the effect to be far stronger and longer.
        I would recommend trying a Yoghurt if suffering from insomnia , hyperactivity . and im sure there will be many other beneficial properties to this method.

        Reply

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 3,350 other followers

%d bloggers like this: