I've been expecting a closed loop explosion, and per O Toole's Law, here is a splendid example of an ostensibly well intended, but woefully ignorant brother blowing himself up with a modified Lil Terp passive design. It's unclear whether he purchased it as is or assembled it himself, but he is clearly ignoring or ignorant of the most basic of the rules.
http://www.aspentimes.com/news/16121402-113/vail-valley-man-injured-in-hash-oil-explosion
For starters, he was extracting indoors, in a residence, which is not ever safe, because things can and do go wrong, go wrong, go wrong................
He is clearly in violation of the first, second, and third rules of CLS extraction, which are never extract indoors in a residence, never extract indoors in a residence, and never extract indoors in a residence.
The forth rule is only extract indoors in a commercial setting, in an adequately protected and ventilated enclosure, as approved by the fire marshal.
Regardless of where he was, he was demonstrably without adequate ventilation for the size leak that occurred. In industrial settings, the fire marshal would never issue a permit with out proper safety precautions like ventilation.
The operator was wearing clothing that was not static free. Some of you have noted attacks on my credibility and sanity on line, by extractor manufacturers like Mr Extractor, when I called them on a demonstration where his demonstrator was burping a passive system indoors wearing a synthetic dress. Please note this incident appears to vindicate me and the NFPA guidelines, while flying in the face of Mr Extractors defensive argument that my claims were ludicrous .
As you can see from the picture below , the Lil Terp design was modified with the addition of sight glass under the column, so that when flooded, it was locked between two valves.
That subjects it to hydraulic forces as the butane warms and expands, which are measured in KSI as opposed to the 50 to 150 PSI they are rated for.
That is why even 3X tanks designed to store butane, only allow an 80% fill, so that the system only sees vapor pressure.
Though the operator said a valve leaked with a pop, valves typically leak by weeping or peeing past a seal, while a sight glass over pressure failure definitely makes a pop. Leaky seals don't suddenly release enough butane to blow up a house, but ruptured sight glasses do.
In its current position, it isn't possible to see whether the glass is broken, but there is clearly no evidence of the three piece valve separating far enough for a release and a leaky valve seal is a jet, not a sudden release with a pop, not to mention it is visible and doesn't show evidence.
The operator was also under the impression that his setup was legal in a residence, was safe to run indoors, and met CO regulations for a CLS. There is no reason that it shouldn't meet CO's regulations as the Lil Terp was originally designed without sight glass, but with it in the configuration below, there is no way it would meet the 3X requirements of ANSI and ASME.
Hats off to this operator for attempting to extract safely, but a failing grade for pre-research. Part of that research was the safety and legal ramifications of extracting in a residence and locale, so in addition to burn treatment, he is facing a day in court on charges that can lock him up for a long time.
Even if it is his house, I'll bet the insurance doesn't cover indoor extraction, and if it isn't paid for, the mortgage holder will no doubt have some thoughts on repairs.
Close your eyes for a moment and imagine the changes it would bring to your life if suddenly you were badly burned, and were facing civil action for the damage, as well as high legal costs and prison time..........................................
GW
7-10-2015
Some of the comments suggest a lack of understanding of the laws for concentrate extraction in CO. I'm not a lawyer, so here is a link to what the CO Attorney General thinks on the subject, as well as a link and summary clip from CO's regulations on flammable solvent extraction:
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27231535/colorado-attorney-general-says-making-marijuana-oil-at
https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/Permanent%20Medical%20Marijuana%20Rules,%20Effective%20March%202,%202014_0.pdf
D. Solvent-Based Medical Marijuana Concentrate.
A Medical Marijuana-Infused Products Manufacturer that engages in the production of Solvent-Based Medical Marijuana Concentrate must:
1. Obtain a report from a Certified Industrial Hygienist or a Professional Engineer that certifies that the equipment, Licensed Premises and standard operating procedures comply with these rules and all applicable local and state building codes, fire codes, electrical codes and other laws. If a local jurisdiction has not adopted a local building code or fire code or if local regulations do not address a specific issue, then the Certified Industrial Hygienist or Professional Engineer shall certify compliance with the International Building Code of 2012 (http://www.iccsafe.org), the International Fire Code of 2012 (http://www.iccsafe.org) or the National Electric Code of 2014 (http://www.nfpa.org), as appropriate.
Note that this rule does not include any later amendments or editions to each Code. The Division has maintained a copy of each code, which are available to the public;
a. Flammable Solvent Determinations. If a Flammable Solvent is to be used in the
processing of Medical Marijuana into a Medical Marijuana Concentrate, then the Certified Industrial Hygienist or Professional Engineer must:
i. Establish a maximum amount of Flammable Solvents and other flammable
materials that may be stored within that Licensed Premises in accordance with
applicable laws, rules and regulations.
ii. Determine what type of electrical equipment, which may include but need not be
limited to outlets, lights, junction boxes, must be installed within the room in
which Medical Marijuana Concentrate are to be produced or Flammable Solvents
are to be stored in accordance with applicable laws, rules and regulations.
iii. Determine whether a gas monitoring system must be installed within the room in
which Medical Marijuana Concentrate are to be produced or Flammable Solvents
are to be stored, and if required the system’s specifications, in accordance with
applicable laws, rules and regulations.
iv. Determine whether fire suppression system must be installed within the room in
which Medical Marijuana Concentrate are to be produced or Flammable Solvents
are to be stored, and if required the system’s specifications, in accordance with
applicable laws, rules and regulations.
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Hey graywolf, thanks for taking your time to write all of this, it is really appreciated by me and I'm sure many other people. I'm going through and studying as much as I can right now from skunkpharm and am amazed at the quality and depth of this site and the time spent to help other safely extract and improve their systems. Just thought I'd say that I'll never buy anything from those mr. Extractor people, and am shocked they can fool enough people to get paid anything. But hey, that gives me hope for the rest of us!
Thanks for the good thoughts brother Rhino! The good news is that soon we will be installing a new platform that is easier to use, and expanding our authorship, to include brothers and sisters who know a lot about stuff that us'ns don't. We already have a backlog of things to add from just us'n chickens, but the current platform has limitations, and us'n chickens also been inundated with time demands elsewhere occupying our available time a bunch of other directions. If I've learned nothing else in life, it is that through their actions brothers and sisters find their own level, suggesting that with legalization and regulation, manufacturers will find it harder to sell equipment not meeting regulations. They will be forced to upgrade or cease, but unfortunately not necessarily before they hurt someone. One of the prime reasons I got the Mk III, IV, and V certified to ASME, was to be able to obtain liability insurance. Even without regulation, getting liability insurance without certification that it meets ASME Section VIII, would be a serious challenge, begging the question as to whether suppliers of un-certified equipment have insurance or have assets to cover product liability law suit awards. GW
Hi Greywolf, I'm hoping you can answer a safety question for me - will a 10" inline blower work as an adequate exhaust fan if the setup is in a 8'x6' shed with a 8000 btu A/C blowing from the top? The only caveat is that the fan isn't listed as explosion proof. The ebay seller's response is below: "Anything that is electrical or composed of metal can cause static. If you are asking if this fan will cause RF static..the answer is no. Some poor quality ballast will cause RF static ( when you are listening to AM radio, you will hear static)...but this fan does not cause that. To be safe..mount the fan outside of your sealed room...there is nothing spark proof when you are dealing with electrical components. The best thing is to mount the fan outside the "hazardous" room and use pvc ducting to draw the air out" Do you think the fan will be sufficient or should I spend the extra 500 on an explosion proof fan?
so the sight glass is installed above the ball valve this seems to be the problem but is this always wrong or is this only an issue if you allow your butane to heat up too much during extraction?
Two issues. The first is that a tubular sight glass is an extremely poor choice anywhere in the column, where it is subject to side loads during handling. Look at how the loads are distributed to the glass tube when you handle the system by the column, which most folks do. Also consider what is happening with thermal shock using subzero butane. To your issue, you don't have to warm a full column of butane up that much to put tons of expansive force on the system, because it is a liquid expanding, not a compressible gas. Any system that is designed to only be safe if nothing goes wrong, is a disaster waiting to happen. To put it in perspective, ODOT only allows an 80% fill of a LPG storage tank, to allow for expansion. The 20% vapor phase, allows for expansion at vapor pressures. GW
GW, I sincerely love you. Maybe in the next lifetime you could be my father, or uncle perhaps. Thank you.
Never mind lol found all your info . Wow great site, respect your willingness to share knowledge , thanks
Hello gray wolf I've had my 1st cls now for a few weeks and I have been doing hrs of research every day to prepare myself to safely use it. I feel like both the topics of never never never run it indoors and wearing all cotton has been driven home well after reading this entire thread . I thank you for that. I plan to read all links thoroughly . Can you direct me to the best video and instructions in your opinion . I own the 1 pound system made by bhogart by the way . Thanks for your time
I currently own an MKIII .. I started with a lil'terp passive extractor that was built from scratch by a friend of mine. I have run both machines hundreds of times without error.. (In a well ventilated shop that is attached to the house but only under my deck). The only error I have ever witnessed has been human error by virtue of operating the machine haphazardly and without proper attention to detail and obvious safety measures. To explain.. I had a new friend (who also owns a MKIII) come over to do some runs with me.. He inserted a sight glass into my machine between the column and the collection tank. He forgot a seal and didn't tighten the sight glass correctly and lost several lbs of butane on the first try. He then removed the sight glass and proceeded to do a run with a 2lb column and a 224g collection tank... He dismissed my concern and warning and began to blast the butane through the column (without any attention to the scale which apparently he doesn't use on his own) .. Butane and oil began to spew out of the bottom seal (path of least resistance) that was seated in a soup warmer. He blamed it on a faulty seal. 😳🔫 Both situations could've ended badly had we been in an enclosed space with anything that could've egnited the butane. I'm no engineer.. But I'm very aware of the dangers present when operating this machinery and how important it is to check all valves, seals and clamps twice before starting my runs for the day. I've heard a number of horror stories.. And they all have one thing in common: human ignorance and a lack of respect for the equipment being operated. If people choose not to heed the numerous warnings for safety measures, blasting outside, etc. then they are asking for it. And it is nobodies fault but their own. I only hope that their ignorance doesn't end in the rest of us being unable to run our machines properly because lawmakers have to step in to protect us from them. Graywolf - thank you for everything you do! :)
Thanks for the good thoughts, and a good point that lawmakers will step in to protect the public. Washington State has already done so with emergency Rule-Making Order CR-103E. I will post a copy for all to marvel at, but in summary, they are holding land lords or their authorized agents responsible for permitting under 105.1.1, insuring someone capable of paying heavy fines is responsible and leaving the possibility of property seizure open. 105.6.49 states that an operational permit is required to use any cannabis extraction system regulated under WAC 314-55-104, as well as stating in 105.7.19, that a permit is also required to install cannabis extraction systems regulated under 314-55-104. To those who argue that personal equipment doesn't have to meet commercial requirements, I say you are mistaken and suggest that you present that question to your personal attorney before taking my word for it. To those who've argued that Graywolf has turned to police work, I reply that no one from the land of WA asked for my input on the rules they developed and had they done so, I would suggest some tweaks, but on whole they put a fusillade right down the middle, and adequately addressed or over addressed the central issues. They are intent enough to not be taken for rides, that they require certification of systems and installations by only WA State certified Registered Professional Engineers, whom they must first certify for the purpose. I personally think the issue of no ME PE ASME certification is more the issue, than Washington not being able to trust registered professional engineers certified by other states, but what is clear from their position, is they either believe otherwise or want to keep the money in state. What Graywolf has continued to do, is educate the public, which includes the rules and the potential hazards of ignoring them. What they do with the education, is more of a statement about them, than Graywolf.
Dude, did you not first vac your chambers down, before you started? If so, you would have discovered your leaks. The other side is, now you have added O2 into your fuel. By letting atmostphere into your tanks, you increase the risk of explosion by premixing Air/Fuel. Please be careful, and only YOU OR A QUALIFIED operator should be extracting. No scale, or gauges is just arking for problems. Also locking that sight glass inbetween pressure collums, without valve isolation, is NEVER a smart/good idea!
From looking at the photo, in a upright position, it seems clear from the "Trail " markings thst the SEAL on top of the sight glass, as well as the one on the bottom of the sight glass, has failed. Look at the discharge pattern above the glass. Starts narrow, then briadens as it moves upwards. With the discharge point. Being were the clamp is seperated, by the threaded shaft. Was the clamp/s loose? Where is a gauge to monitor pressure? From the pic(cant see the down side of the glass) glass looks intact. But again trailing patterns, looks like seal faliure! Plus plenty of ignorance.........
I saw you edited the post, and added some woefully inaccurate sections of your own. Your interpretation of the law is just that: your interpretation. You quoted sections regarding medical marijuana businesses, which apply to retail establishments, not individuals. Prior to july 1st, there were no regulations for at home production of marijuana concentrates using materials grown by the hashmaker. While you are correct in your analysis of the gravity of this situation, the conclusions you drew were mostly misinformed. I respect you, and have you to thank for the closed loop systems I use. I also hope you can understand how neither of us is a lawyer, and so we can misunderstand the laws as written, but in that case, we should both stick to what we know, in my case growing weed, and in yours, being a badass icon of the hash processing equipment manufacturing field. Sorry if the tone of my prior message was recieved incirrectly, I did not mean to criticize your knowlege of an external state's laws, meerly to correct information so yours can continue to be the gold standard of hashmaker resources.
If you explore further, you will find that the laws restrict concentrates extraction to licensed extractors. I copied and pasted most of the law stuff so as to get it right, so if you have better answers, then here is where you can share them as opposed to stating what I posted is wrong. I didn't tell anyone they couldn't, or even not to, but made clear the laws and hazards. The tone of your last asshole message was pretty clear, just woefully out of step in my perspective. This thread is about saving lives and keeping brothers and sisters out of legal straits, Drew is just a circus sideshow part of it, and a perfect example of the incorrect and dangerous information unscrupulous builders are feeding the ignorant and simple minded. Those who were unaware that among other things, I have been a Safety Director, and I don't fuck around, or take prisoners on life safety issues, do now and if they find that a detraction, so be it. Those who have come to believe life safety issues are solved by a like/unlike vote on social media, and they can string out the debate on Facebook while not addressing the core issues, are suffering from the rarified atmosphere. GW
So, what I want to know, and have been wondering for a while. Lets take the Tamisium for example, it says that you will void the warranty for extracting marijuana with it. Does this mean extraction of any plants is illegal with butane? Or just reefer? Plus the new laws state "flammable" solvents. Does this mean a simple ethanol extract with a soxhlet and distillation apparatus for eatables is also illegal? So all the moms making it for their sick kids are now just common criminals again. Seems kind of vague to throw all flammable liquids and extractions in this category... But hey. Who the fuck thought it was legal in the first place, people may try reading about kitchen chemistry in general... poisoning and killing yourself, friends and neighbors, chemical fires, is not something new. Bad info. The internet. Youtube. That is the only thing new.
Tamisium is made in Texas as an essential oil extractor. To acknowledge it's use for cannabis would create problems for them in an illegal state. They aren't making them illegal, just starting to regulate how, where, and by whom. The fish trap exists only because of the fish. If brothers weren't blowing stuff up, it would have attracted less attention and regulation.
"con concentrates" r useless scammers.
this is what happens when dumb ass people think they can just make cls and sell them.. leave it to certified people
Well, once again you have managed to point the finger at everyone but yourself. "Please note this incident appears to vindicate me and the NFPA guidelines, while flying in the face of Mr Extractors defensive argument that my claims were ludicrous." The Owner of the device and the man in question went on Facebook in a CLS group and explained that he was operating the device indoors, the valve did fail and it was an item in the laundry room that ignited the device, after the valve leaked enough to cause the explosion. Vindication huh? It would seem that you take every chance you get to point out how smart you think you are, even in the face of a tragedy. The modified part did not fail, it was the cheap valve you recommended. So for all the numbers you quote and the guidelines you spew, fact is you wrote this entire article without once taking any form of possible responsibility, or acknowledged the fact that the man using your designs may have known what he was talking about in the failure of this device. Let me tell you how this article should have read: "We are terribly sorry for the tragedy this man has suffered. I know that he trusted our designs and methods, and we will not stop until we get to the bottom of this so we can prevent this in the future. Its too early to make any judgement calls, so before we rush to judgement we will do some research and get the facts straight. It looks like the device was modified, so we will have to check to see if that was the case, because the man operating the device said it was not, and that the valve was the leak point. We understand that this man is going through a lot, and belittling him and quoting police guidelines is not what he needs right now. What he needs is some assistance, and support, so we are here to give it to him." So you know what, your right. He was wrong to run it indoors. He was wrong to try to innovate and change your design. All you do is diss this poor guy for giving you a bad rap. That sucks. Look, this is your podium and your website. You want to use it to tell everyone how smart you are, fine. You and all your buddies on ICMAG had a good hard laugh and stroke fest thinking Drew hurt himself in a explosion. An explosion that did not occur mind you. It only seems fitting that the truth is that it was your product that caused an explosion, not mine. Your valve. Not mine. I'm sure you and all your buddies are on ICMAG laughing at this guy too, right? In the future, please don't use our name to show how right you think you are, especially in an article about your device blowing up. I think you have bigger things to worry about than the fabric of a woman's dress. Your slipping. This entire article looks like you're explaining why you are not at fault, which it is. Sometimes saying less says more. Point is, your human like the rest of us. Act like it once in a while. Connoisseur Concentrates-
Good to see I see I hit a nerve Drew! As per usual you turn the issue of static electricity into a personal attack on me rather than own up to the fact that I, the fire marshals, and the NFPA are correct about the dangers with static electricity around LPG, while you continue to down play not only their dangers, but the dangers of indoor extraction. It leads me to wonder how big an ego a would be man would need, to put the safety of the public so low on the list of priority, as to fly in the face of the nationally recognized NFPA safety standards for handling LPG gas, and ASME standards for pressure vessels. As usual your account and the printed account are at odds. The original story that as he relayed to responders, was that he jumped back, the static electricity from his sweat shirt ignited it. I called and tried to discuss the event with the Aspen/Eagle Fire Chief, but was informed that it was still under investigation, though he would discuss it with me once the case was released by the detective, whom wouldn’t talk to me either. Until we see the full report, we won’t know for sure what happened, but my comment that you took umbrage to, was oriented not towards what failed, but at the original story about the static electricity from his sweat shirt igniting it. You are absolutely right that I didn’t want to miss the chance to point that out to those whom you have convinced that you’re are smarter than NFPA, and their standards don’t apply in Drewsworld. I also wanted those reading to ponder all of the ramifications of an explosion, which are far more than just the unhandy 3500F plus fireball you find yourself standing in. Physical, civil, fiscal, and legal, so that they aren’t inclined to take your attitude or accept your downplays. Clearly you haven’t read the NFPA standards, even though I provided you with the free link, or you not only wouldn’t be still trying to defend your unsafe act, but would be hiding your head in embarrassment. Here is a free link for any of ya’ll readers who don’t wish to take either of our words, and would like to read it chapter and verse themselves. http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/free-access As far as my design, your attacking me as responsible for an accident using a device based on my original ASTME independent third party ME PE certified design, built by others to their standards, and modified to include elements specifically proscribed by this original designer, and operated in a manner this original designer preaches against, is the fault of the original designer, only demonstrates how far you are reaching to obfuscate the issue, instead of simply admitting fault and changing your ways. By your reasoning, Henry Ford is at fault if someone drives a Chevrolet into a stone wall, which both no doubt would advise against. With regard to IC Mag, I did note that you did extremely poorly there, for the same reasons that you will do poorly here. You simply go for personal attacks, rather than provide any supporting data, ostensibly because there is no supporting data. That works with some ignorant, or dim witted sycophants, but not with the technical crowd that you tried to befuddle with BS, rather than answer simple questions and admit that your sales video demonstrated a lack of awareness of safe practices and national fire codes. On the other hand, I’ve been at IC Mag, since about 2009, but having read and followed the TOU, have never had the same problems that you did. What is your theory on why that is, other than they are stupid and corrupt because they wouldn’t tolerate bull shit, just like the fire marshals and NFPA are corrupt Graywolf sycophants? Your “let me tell you how this article should have read” is a joke, as the least qualified person in the room to be giving advice, as demonstrated by the content. You state that the operator admitted that he was running it indoors, but fluff if off as incidental. Given all the information from readily available legitimate sources, how sorry should we feel for someone flaunting the loudly repeated golden rules. I rest my case Drew! You continue to be casual about violation of the number one rule, not to extract indoors, and are so intent at denying the existence and seriousness of static electricity that you are ignoring the standards our national fire safety program is based on and which every fire marshal salutes. Last round, you agreed to have your system ASME certified. Have your done so yet and may we see the stamped prints. You also stated that you have liability insurance, available for your customers to inspect. Have any of you customers seen it? Have you stopped telling customers it is safe to mix butane and atmosphere in their tanks, instead of vacuuming them of atmosphere first? Drew, our issues lie with the unsafe things you tell and demonstrate to the public, not how I feel about your mores. Until you join the march toward safe industry practices, and stop leading brothers and sisters in harm’s way, we will continue to be at odds. Any reader who has been led to believe as you do, by you, are invited to either read the facts themselves, or if reading standards and regulations is not your thing, do simply talk to your friendly local fire chief or fire marshal about how they feel about ASME certs, indoor extraction or venting, and synthetic fabrics around LPG operations. GW
This seems a decent place to talk, so lets talk. I view static electricity as an ignition source. No doubt. I also realize that all day, every day, closed loop extractors perform pouroffs, and open devices that we both know contain enough vapors to be ignited by the entire country who is not wearing grounding straps and static free clothing. Why isn't the entire world blowing up, and its mainly open blasters is closed rooms? You have to agree that the majority of devices in use by the average extractor, when opened, contain enough fumes to be ignited, yet they are not. My only point is that I acknowledge and understand the importance of static electricity, I don't hide in the safety of pretending the entire country should be in jumpsuits chained to the wall with a strap. Its not reality, anywhere I have ever been or in any picture I have ever seen from you. If I did that, It would be easy to point the finger and say how right I was in any accident, a position I don't feel the need to be in. You and I take different stances. The easiest way to look at this is Drug use, a topic Im sure you will ridicule me for using. If you look at some countries, some have taken the stance that drugs are illegal and a crime, and take a hard line stance on them, using prision to eradicate the problem. Other realize that this stance has failed, and that people in real life do use drugs, and have tried to pass out free safe drugs and parafanielia and education in the hopes of phasing out the problem, or easing and not punishing the populace. You have become the police, quoting fire marshals and laws left and right, living in a world that is so far from reality its not funny. Ive been to a lot of extraction facilities. Absolutely not a single one where the requirements include grounding straps or certain types of clothing. And yet the all still stand. Your extreme hardline posture is out of place with reality, and to me your time could be better spent. But if you need to hear it to feel better. You are right. We should all be in static free jumpsuits with grounding straps. And the world should be crime, pain, hate and hunger free, just like the laws that are on the books say. In regards to your ASME certification, that is a joke in a couple ways. The engineers I spoke to laughed when I told them you expect your drawing to retain whatever certification they have when some guy build them in his garage. You know damn well no one is going to an ASME welder and buying ASME certified components. Come on. Even then ASME pressure cert only says one thing, that is can handle pressure. You guys wear that shit like a crown. I can ASME certify a tin can, that doesn't make it a good extraction device. You know what is doesn't say? It doesn't say in the product in question is: Well Designed Efficient Recovers Quickly Recovers Efficiently Is Food Grade Is Medical Grade Uses food or medical grade components Does not contain lubricating oil Is not over or under designed Is the worlds best extractor It the worlds worst extractor If every extraction device was ASME certified, one would be the worlds worst and one would be the worlds best. You guys (in general) need to stop using that to trick people into thinking it means you device is good. Having said all that we are in talks with Kirkland Dynamics in Washington beginning our cert process, which after initial review should pass fine. To be clear we are submitting the device in two different formats, glass and stainless columns and we will see what passes. We have redesigned the product from 8 oz to one lb , and needed to redraw the blueprints and material sheets etc. Now that I have a break I will submit them. I have changed my designs. I can admit fault, no problem. I stripped the 8 oz unit down too far with the removal of the vac port, and put it back on. Every one of our units ever sold now has them, or has been retrofitted with them. We had a total of 5 units out without them and they have been accounted for. We have changed our instructions to reflect this. You were right. In attempting to work outside the box we strayed too far in out early models and it needed correcting. Ill include a link to our new instruction videos and model. https://vimeo.com/133410217 I subscribe to the fact that most accidents in this field are user error, and have also used your car analogy. I expect the same from your situation, and if and when my company has a problem, I also expect that to be the case. My issue is not with your product having an issue, its with you bringing me into it when you simply did not know the facts, you just went off what you heard. I define facts as at least corroborating the story first, especially when the pictures do not support it. I think an issue in this magnitude requires a small amount of patience and research before blame is issued, or your vindication earned. You could still be right who knows, your point is valid either way. As a person/company who builds a competitive product, I have yet to see the benefit of showing you my insurance or blueprints. Can you please explain how doing so benefits me in sales? Are you going to either buy or recommend my product, or am I simple giving my competition a leg up? I would like to know. Im not opposed to showing you either, if it has a benefit to me as well. I have repeated said this and I will say it to you personally. You and I are at odds for the same reason. You believe I have and continue to mislead the public. I believe you have taught questionable practices to the public for years, including the use of appions, non food grade pumps, hexane ingestion ( known neurotoxin) and open blasting, all which you now down people for. I have a serious problem with you pointing fingers, and not owing up to your actions. While the concerns you have with me are real, they are theoretical. Your actions have had a very long and real world effect. I don't buy your research excuse, and if it was research, it was research on the general public, to at least with your knowledge being gained at the possible harm they suffered from your experiments which were duplicated in the manner you openly described for copy. If you want things to be fair, I will openly write a joint letter with you explaining how I was wrong to recommend and show potentially dangerous information to the public in the early stages of my company if you will do the same. My main problem here GreyWolf is while you can sit here and down me for making errors in my early years, you will not own up to yours, and I do not respect you for that. If you can do that, we may be able to turn this around. I have the facilities, engineers, staff and funding to make all these automated systems your working on a reality. Not continued prototypes. I am working in Silicon Valley in this area. Large scale fully automated system. Its about a year or so out and very real. Either way you are very right and very wrong at the same time. With all due respect, this is a very serious topic that I would expect a serious answer to, or at least an explanation to. Can you do that?
Submitted on 2015/07/19 at 9:04 AM | In reply to Skunk Pharm Research,LLC. This seems a decent place to talk, so lets talk. I view static electricity as an ignition source. No doubt. I also realize that all day, every day, closed loop extractors perform pouroffs, and open devices that we both know contain enough vapors to be ignited by the entire country who is not wearing grounding straps and static free clothing. Please don’t resort to the extreme, with things I never said. I said, don’t wear synthetic (plastic) clothing around extractions, because they build static charge. I wear, and have taught all my students, including you, to wear cotton. How many of the audience has pulled a nylon or rayon top off in the dark and watched the discharge, so they know what I’m talking about, without having to read what NFPA has determined after exhaustive study? Why isn’t the entire world blowing up, and its mainly open blasters is closed rooms? That is where we disagree. You think everyone else flaunts the dangers like you, and I have a higher opinion of the predominance of the population’s intelligence. You have to agree that the majority of devices in use by the average extractor, when opened, contain enough fumes to be ignited, yet they are not. I not only agree that it is the few that it is the minority of open extractors creating the explosions, but I ascribe that to mine and others long campaign to educate the public, so they aren’t ignorant of how to optimize safety, leaving only sociopathy and stupidity to deal with. My only point is that I acknowledge and understand the importance of static electricity, I don’t hide in the safety of pretending the entire country should be in jumpsuits chained to the wall with a strap. Nor did I ascribe to that view, so I infer it is hyperbole to avoid the real issue, which it was unsafe to wear the synthetic clothing, while burping your device in public. I also take umbrage to it needing burping in the first place, to it being done in doors, and you promoting it as a safe practice on film. Its not reality, anywhere I have ever been or in any picture I have ever seen from you. If I did that, It would be easy to point the finger and say how right I was in any accident, a position I don’t feel the need to be in. If you had no secondary agenda and your memory was better, you would remember me wearing all cotton clothes and promoting the same. You and I take different stances. The easiest way to look at this is Drug use, a topic Im sure you will ridicule me for using. If you look at some countries, some have taken the stance that drugs are illegal and a crime, and take a hard line stance on them, using prision to eradicate the problem. Other realize that this stance has failed, and that people in real life do use drugs, and have tried to pass out free safe drugs and parafanielia and education in the hopes of phasing out the problem, or easing and not punishing the populace. You have become the police, quoting fire marshals and laws left and right, living in a world that is so far from reality its not funny. Thank you for again taking a leap brother Drew, and further highlighting to the readers just how far from reality you are and just how dangerous than makes you. It is specifically because of how skewed against the national fire safety laws and common sense your actions and verbiage are, and your willingness to ignore, that you are dangerous. You proffer that my providing the readers with a free link to the NFPA, which goes into intimate detail about the fire safety issue you flaunt, makes me a policeman as opposed to a teacher. How about instead that it is because I recognize how they arrived at their position and believe they did so professionally enough, that I’m not in a position to place myself above them, not to mention the criminality of public endangering. You appear to be saying it doesn’t matter what the rules are and why, what is more important, is what everyone is doing, even if it unsafe and stupid. I guess this is the part where I ridicule for the “Drug Use” comparison, because what you seem to be talking about is druggie mentality, which I don’t accept is an appropriate for most of the brothers and sisters extracting, so consider that it might be limited more to who you are associating with. Ive been to a lot of extraction facilities. Absolutely not a single one where the requirements include grounding straps or certain types of clothing. And yet the all still stand. You continue to get further and further afield from my actual statements. Were any of them wearing a low cut satin dress? Your extreme hardline posture is out of place with reality, and to me your time could be better spent. You continue to have an opinion on how I could better spend my time, yet continue to waste it because you are not mature enough to accept your error, fix it, and move on. Instead you continue to drag your ego through this blog, as well as your facebook. But if you need to hear it to feel better. You are right. We should all be in static free jumpsuits with grounding straps. And the world should be crime, pain, hate and hunger free, just like the laws that are on the books say. Ah, we finally do get to a “but”, just to make me feel better, but somehow it doesn’t feel sincere? In regards to your ASME certification, that is a joke in a couple ways. The engineers I spoke to laughed when I told them you expect your drawing to retain whatever certification they have when some guy build them in his garage. Of course they don’t! Did you have to find an engineer to tell you that, when you profess to be so much more gifted than any of your competition. If you already knew that yourself, why your asinine charges about the flawed design being the cause, not the builder, modifier, or operator. Were you hoping the readers aren’t paying attention to your bi-facial rhetoric. You know damn well no one is going to an ASME welder and buying ASME certified components. Come on. Now I know damn well you haven’t read WA and NV’s requirements requiring ASME certification, or you wouldn’t continue to prattle along like you had a clue about ASME certification. Even then ASME pressure cert only says one thing, that is can handle pressure. You guys wear that shit like a crown. More like we wear it like not only the law, but a damn good one based on my professional lifetime as an engineer designing equipment. You act like all rules are pulled from someone’s nether regions, instead of having been developed after exhaustive testing by professionals. I can ASME certify a tin can, that doesn’t make it a good extraction device. I take that challenge!! You do that and you can post the results on this blog, following peer review. You know what is doesn’t say? It doesn’t say in the product in question is: Well Designed Efficient Recovers Quickly Recovers Efficiently Is Food Grade Is Medical Grade Uses food or medical grade components Does not contain lubricating oil Is not over or under designed Is the worlds best extractor It the worlds worst extractor If every extraction device was ASME certified, one would be the worlds worst and one would be the worlds best. Absolutely true, one will be better, and its pretty clear that they all will be required to meet ASME. You guys (in general) need to stop using that to trick people into thinking it means you device is good. Actually we just did the ASME cert for insurance reasons. Having said all that we are in talks with Kirkland Dynamics in Washington beginning our cert process, which after initial review should pass fine. To be clear we are submitting the device in two different formats, glass and stainless columns and we will see what passes. We have redesigned the product from 8 oz to one lb , and needed to redraw the blueprints and material sheets etc. Now that I have a break I will submit them. Wowza! That was one of the promises you made last time, but all you have done so far is try to justify why it wasn’t so bad that you haven’t, yet openly admit you are unsure that your glass sight glass will pass, while continuing to sell your product to unsuspecting brothers and sisters. I have changed my designs. I can admit fault, no problem. I stripped the 8 oz unit down too far with the removal of the vac port, and put it back on. Good idea!!! Why was it such a horribly bad one when I pointed it out to you, and how could you ever have taken it off in the first place? Every one of our units ever sold now has them, or has been retrofitted with them. We had a total of 5 units out without them and they have been accounted for. We have changed our instructions to reflect this. You were right. In attempting to work outside the box we strayed too far in out early models and it needed correcting. Ill include a link to our new instruction videos and model. https://vimeo.com/133410217 I subscribe to the fact that most accidents in this field are user error, and have also used your car analogy. I expect the same from your situation, and if and when my company has a problem, I also expect that to be the case. My issue is not with your product having an issue, its with you bringing me into it when you simply did not know the facts, you just went off what you heard. I define facts as at least corroborating the story first, especially when the pictures do not support it. I think an issue in this magnitude requires a small amount of patience and research before blame is issued, or your vindication earned. You could still be right who knows, your point is valid either way. I simply repeated what the victim told the first responders, before the story evolved. I’m in line with the fire chief, to get more facts, when they are released, so am amazed that you have done so well. As a person/company who builds a competitive product, I have yet to see the benefit of showing you my insurance or blueprints. Can you please explain how doing so benefits me in sales? Are you going to either buy or recommend my product, or am I simple giving my competition a leg up? I would like to know. Im not opposed to showing you either, if it has a benefit to me as well. I design competitive products, but I most certainly don’t build or sell any, and the reason you might want to show not me, but the rest of the readers your liability information, is that it may start to occur on them that you have none and can’t get any for your non ASME certified product. I have repeated said this and I will say it to you personally. You and I are at odds for the same reason. You believe I have and continue to mislead the public. I believe you have taught questionable practices to the public for years, including the use of appions, non food grade pumps, hexane ingestion ( known neurotoxin) and open blasting, all which you now down people for. I have a serious problem with you pointing fingers, and not owing up to your actions. While the concerns you have with me are real, they are theoretical. Your actions have had a very long and real world effect. I don’t buy your research excuse, and if it was research, it was research on the general public, to at least with your knowledge being gained at the possible harm they suffered from your experiments which were duplicated in the manner you openly described for copy. If you want things to be fair, I will openly write a joint letter with you explaining how I was wrong to recommend and show potentially dangerous information to the public in the early stages of my company if you will do the same. My main problem here GreyWolf is while you can sit here and down me for making errors in my early years, you will not own up to yours, and I do not respect you for that. You were critiqued for exactly what you were doing at the time, not your history, and you still haven’t corrected the ASME issue, nor admitted to your audience that synthetic clothing is hazardous around vaporized LPG. If you can do that, we may be able to turn this around. I have the facilities, engineers, staff and funding to make all these automated systems your working on a reality. That suggestion demonstrates how far our perspectives diverge, and suggests hallucination. We will never be business partners, nor do I need any help from you technically or financially. More importantly, I do not want my name associated with anyone demonstrating your business practices. Not continued prototypes. I am working in Silicon Valley in this area. Large scale fully automated system. Good for you! Wolfwurx is long past prototypes, and have version 2 systems in the field. Its about a year or so out and very real. Either way you are very right and very wrong at the same time. With all due respect, this is a very serious topic that I would expect a serious answer to, or at least an explanation to. Can you do that? I don’t know, how did I do?
You still will not address the issue I brought up. You avoid it like the plague. What do you say about all the stuff you taught the public for years, that you now down them for?
I'm just going to quote GreyWolf on this one: "You were critiqued for exactly what you were doing at the time, not your history, and you still haven’t corrected the ASME issue, nor admitted to your audience that synthetic clothing is hazardous around vaporized LPG." In other words, work diligently to build a better industry for everyone, or else you will be stuck in the past with a design that does not only fail to pass third-party engineer peer review standards accepted by Fire Marshals in legal states, but will also put your customers at risk during operation. There is a difference between a faulty design and a faulty component. Next time you seek to undermine your competitors make sure you understand that difference.
Your silence speaks volumes Grey Wolf. I dont want your girl to answer for you. You wanna be a teacher, answer the question: What do you say about all the stuff you taught the public for years, that you now down them for? You expect people to listen to you now, only to have them be admonished by you in the future for doing what your teaching today.
My silence for a day, actually means I have a life beyond this drivel brother Drew. I live in the real world, not in a made up social media world like yourself, and just have a number of better things to do with people of real substance. Your continuing to dodge the issue of your dangerous practices, by charging me with crimes against humanity, says loads more about you than me. Fire safety is not my opinion, it is a reality of the world we live in, and even if I rape small children, that gives you no license to endanger the public. You act like this is a game, and we both know you've not only stretched and manipulated the facts, but created charges from whole cloth as well, so lets cut to the chase and up the ante like big boys, instead of whining and sniveling like little bitches. I'm not playing your silly little half truth and a lie social media game with lives at stake brother Drew, I just forwarded a link to this conversation to the Multnomah County Fire Marshal and the DA, for their take on it. Mine is that you are dangerous and your flaunting not only the rules, but good sense after having it pointed out to you, is criminal. Start thinking what clever lies and recriminations you can use to undermine them, so as to invalidate their input. How well do you think that is going to work?
I think for the third time in a row, you are going to dodge responsibility and it is painfully obvious. Not plating my game huh? Well let me clarify it for you: YOU RECOMMENDED DANGEROUS ACTIVITIES FOR YEARS, AND NOW RIDICULE PEOPLE FOR DOING WHAT YOU SAID TO DO. HOW CAN WE TRUST WHAT YOU SAY NOW, IF YOU WONT ANSWER THE QUESTION,OR TAKE RESPONSIBILITY, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR DEVICE JUST BLEW UP? You also continue to be a snitch. Good luck with that GreyWolf. See how that fairs for you in the cannabis community. When you get called on your practices you quickly change the subject and run to the police. I see a pattern here.
Certainly at least the third time I've resisted you redirecting the topic of the conversation, which is the unsafe act of blasting indoors and static electricity. I've not only never recommended blasting indoors, but have strongly advised against, and have always taught students whom had ears about static electricity. Clearly you didn't have ears, or a memory of convenience. Your continuing to call a device built by others, modified against my best advice, and operated in direct opposition to my strong admonishments against, only shows the depth you are having to reach search for substance. As also noted, I'm are not in agreement with your creative interpretation and bending of half truths, and as I've also noted, doesn't justify you continuing to endanger the public, after being made aware of it. Thank you Drew, thank you very much for the snitch epithet! Exactly what a sociopathic social media bully would try for intimidation, when they don't get their way by lying and sniveling, and so I will wear it like a badge of honor. It is maniacs like you, preaching that indoor extraction is the accepted norm, and the fire safety laws have no relationship to reality, that are criminally responsible, once you had the veil of ignorance removed from your eyes. You took my class, where I told everyone about static electricity and about no indoor extraction, yet you stand there challenging me for damning practices I taught. You can lie and say I didn't, but I suggest you not lose track of the number of other students present, whom will call you on your bullshit. You certainly won't find it in my writing anywhere, and we both know if you could you would have. Take your best shot Drew! At my age, there are no secrets who and what I am, so it really doesn't matter what lies you spread, because I am a known commodity. Buffoons light years smarter than you did my entire professional career, but that I retired early at the top of my game is a matter of public record. My subsequent record since in medical cannabis is not one of accidents as you charge, but of students enlightened and lives literally saved. That too is a matter of record, so by all means tell everyone you are my enemy, because I believe you can tell as much by who someones enemies are, as by who their friends are. In the interim, may I suggest you follow through with ASME certification, clean up your practices, and prepare for some scrutiny. GW
Arson is only a possible charge if you are renting, or are in a multiple occupancy unit. So said the local police when I just asked some questions during an random interaction. I have heard there is a law change as of 2 weeks ago, so only licensed persons may operate a solvent based hash extraction system.
I checked again, and he was outside on a porch, not indoors. Also the sherrif said that he broke laws, not that he was breaking a law by operating a closed loop system. His charges will be criminal mischeive, reckless endangerment, and arson. Those relate to having fucked up, and not to the legality of closed loop blasting in general.
Define porch??? The evidence at hand suggests that he was in an area enclosed enough, and without enough ventilation to prevent the collection of enough gas, that when it ignited, the shock wave was enough to cause the neighbor to think it was his home that exploded, . CO most definitely allows CLS extraction, but not at residential locations. If you doubt my veracity, check with your friendly neighborhood CO fire marshal. You might also read what the CO Attorney Generals views are, as well as what is required to receive approval for flammable solvent extractions. I'll add them above for all to read.
The dude lied to the first responders and later admited he had been extracting indoors. Also, your links are accurate, but barring an explosion, the fire marshall would have no jurisdiction to investigate, and in my oppinion, municiple iolations aren't breaking the law, its just breaking a rule. P.s. Stop acting like a child and start ignoring 'brother drew'... You look like an asshole and it has hurt my oppinion of you.
You can take it however you like, but you are missing the whole point of my post, which is to draw to everyone's attention what they are facing if they do come to the attention of LEO. Not only are they burned, but in legal, civil, and financial straits. I am not here to wave the law in everyone's face, only make sure they didn't find out the hard way, like the brother in the article. I'm also here to make sure would be extractors are aware of the perils, so take enough precautions that they aren't faced with the above. We will continue to print the truth as we see it, and if that diminishes your opinion of us, than you weren't meant to follow us anyway, and should move along.
Goddamn police are so sure that he is guilty of something and are determined to charge him with arson ... just like they treat everyone who accidentally blows up their propane grills, while trying to deep-fry a frozen turkey or degrease their engines with solvent. Arson is defined as "intentional", so if they railroad this dumbass on an arson charge it will be a miscarriage of justice.
Goddamn police should be fired if they are ignorant that it is illegal to extract BHO in a residence......... They are following press protocol while waiting for the DA to decide what all to throw at the defendant. I agree that his intent did not appear felonious, hence the "well intended", but was the damage any less because of his good intentions, and would your view change if innocent bystanders had been injured or lost their homes? Beside best of intentions, the onus is on us to educate ourselves before operating a CLS.
That sight glass doesn't look shattered to me, but of course the damage could be on the other side. Nor do I see a valve above it so I don't see how it could be subjected to hydraulic pressures. We have had a triclamp fail in a spectacular way before though. This resulted in a dense cloud of butane and product and one hell of an adrenaline rush, but no damage as this was outdoors. We suspect we'd been overtightening the clamps and continued to use them after they'd worn out. We now replace them at the slightest sign of wear.
Yup, as I noted in its current position, it isn't possible to tell, so I'm taking latitude with his description of a popping sound and the volume that was present, for the neighbor to think his own house was involved. The other valve is at the top of the flooded column, so everything in the column is subjected to hydraulic pressure. With a full column, how could it not? No evidence of spectacular triclamp failure either.